650b pfff

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
, but think that DH should be wheel size restricted so that they don't adjust the nature of the tracks to suit different wheels.
What if in the late 80s they restricted suspension travel so that they didn't adjust the nature of the trails? Thinking DH should be flat out down a fire trail on the same bike you raced Xc on

Pros have a good choice of what equipment to run. Getting it right for the selected World Championship track is part of the challenge and drama

The best argument is basically this:
  • The UCI have SEVERELY restricted any change or different parts in road cycling


  • And to quote - Jacquie Phelan
    Until mountain biking came along, the bike scene was ruled by a small elite cadre of people who seemed allergic to enthusiasm.

    Lets not go back there
 
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Yarrahappinni

Likes Dirt
Marketing only works when you believe it, 29, 27.5 & 26 doesn't mean shit. From the words of the 3rd best at the world champs, "ride what feels right at the time". Wisdom beyond the keyboard.

Personally, I'd love to try a 27.5 super machine & I bet many of you secretly admit that to.
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
After all the talk at the world champs of 650b & 29er the 26inch still comes out on top, they might roll a bit faster but sure as shit don't turn better.
Turning argument could also be applied to a larger frame. a 650B small frame for say troy would probably still turn better than peatys large V10.
They all have characteristics. The track 650B was clearly a better bike there is the argument though how worthy that track was, sure top section was good but the rest was mostly pedaling and jumps.

Its too early in the 650B to say for certain which is better, i currently see it as another personal change or adjustment for track or rider, it comes with its pros and cons. But i have a feeling when we see more riders moving to 650b and riding tracks like champery, val di sole, andorra and schladming these more technical tight trails we will see which way the sport it progressing.

The bigger wheels roll better and while it might slightly affect cornering its not difficult to corner you don't need to slow down to corner so it might be a little more work but no time lost and you gain time in the momentum and more ability to gain speed if you do scrub some off.

I hate to say it but 27.5 looks like the future, but ill reserve that judgment till the other tight slower trails are ridden.

Marketing only works when you believe it, 29, 27.5 & 26 doesn't mean shit.
No but the physics does mean something, sure science cant show or prove everything nor can it really take into account the riders variables to who wins but as for wheel size its pretty one sided that the larger wheel is faster.
 
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valium

Likes Dirt
What if in the late 80s they restricted suspension travel so that they didn't adjust the nature of the trails? Thinking DH should be flat out down a fire trail on the same bike you raced Xc on

Pros have a good choice of what equipment to run. Getting it right for the selected World Championship track is part of the challenge and drama



And to quote - Jacquie Phelan
Until mountain biking came along, the bike scene was ruled by a small elite cadre of people who seemed allergic to enthusiasm.

Lets not go back there
I don't disagree with what you're saying, and I did consider that. But the evolution of suspension has encouraged the evolution of DH trails to their current state. I'm concerned that other wheel sizes could push them in the other direction. Then again, perhaps after 2 years of 29ers in the DH world cup we'd have buff as hell 29er rims. Which again could be good.

Obviously, I just want to keep the DH world cup being that thing I watch thinking "these guys are fucking mad".
 

frenchman

Eats cheese. Sells crack.
No but the physics does mean something, sure science cant show or prove everything nor can it really take into account the riders variables to who wins but as for wheel size its pretty one sided that the larger wheel is faster.
So physics is not science?

When a 27.5" or 29" wheel gets top spot on the podium of the worlds or series overall it will be proven.
 
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flamshmizer

Likes Dirt
So physics is not science?

When a 27.5" or 29" wheel gets top spot on the podium of the worlds or series overall it will be proven.
What will be proven? I think 29" wins at XC heaps, so there must be something to it being faster. Or maybe the fittest/fastest rider wins.

Nah, that can't be it. I mean Gwin rode Trek and won all the time, now Trek's riders win every race even without Gwin.

If you changed the seatpost of a pro rider and somehow actually convinced them within the depths of the psych that it would make them faster, it probably would. 90% of that level of racing is in your head, and if they truly beleive the bigger wheels help then they probably do.
 

frenchman

Eats cheese. Sells crack.
What will be proven? I think 29" wins at XC heaps, so there must be something to it being faster. Or maybe the fittest/fastest rider wins.

Nah, that can't be it. I mean Gwin rode Trek and won all the time, now Trek's riders win every race even without Gwin.

If you changed the seatpost of a pro rider and somehow actually convinced them within the depths of the psych that it would make them faster, it probably would. 90% of that level of racing is in your head, and if they truly beleive the bigger wheels help then they probably do.
What will be proven? Read the thread.

You can say 29er is just as fast, if not faster for XC because it now has the results behind it.

Want to back up your claim that the fairy wheels are faster for DH? Then take it to the track and fucking win. Or rather get one of your riders to win - this is aimed at you marketing plebs.
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
So physics is not science?

When a 27.5" or 29" wheel gets top spot on the podium of the worlds or series overall it will be proven.
Where did I say physic's is not science........the post I was replying to was implying that the marketing hype of bigger wheels means nothing, My point was you can deny the marketing all you want but you cant deny the physics of a bigger wheel.

Wins cannot prove outright that the equipment is better, you honestly cant make that conclusion out right.
There are too many variables in what makes a rider fastest on the day, wins just mean a good package with a great run.

You could not just say oh 650B won they must be better it completely disregards every other and more importantly the major factors of what makes a rider fast. At best you could conclude 650B must be at least as good as 26 wheels. if a slower rider is on 650B and gee atherton is on 26 wheels he will probably still win does that mean 26 wheels are better? Of course not.

You would need to conduct back to back and multiple runs of riders comparing their personal times on both set ups to get a correlation of overall improvement. Even than you have variables but its a better test ground against the rider rather than who wins a wc cup which is way to athlete dependent than equipment.

As I said previously, the physics proves the benefits of larger wheels.
 
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frenchman

Eats cheese. Sells crack.
No but the physics does mean something, sure science cant show or prove everything nor can it really take into account the riders variables to who wins but as for wheel size its pretty one sided that the larger wheel is faster.
Where did I say physic's is not science........the post I was replying to was implying that the marketing hype of bigger wheels means nothing, My point was you can deny the marketing all you want but you cant deny the physics of a bigger wheel.
Physics is science. Science works by proving things.
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
So physics is not science?
Pay attention, tabata protocol is science...unless it is done at your local gym, then it is just marketing BS which is also most of what is written in relation to 26/27.5/29 which proves that I need to go to bed
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
Physics is science. Science works by proving things.
Yes science cannot prove everything that's exactly right. The field is filled with unexplainable phenomenons.
Where did I separate physics from science. I didn't. I said the physic's matters, at times science (including physics as its science) cannot explain everything but on the topic of wheel size it (meaning science and obviously physics) is one sided it is proven that a larger wheel has advantages over the smaller wheel.

Science does not prove or understand everything, anyone who believes so would be very naive.

Pay attention, tabata protocol is science...unless it is done at your local gym, then it is just marketing BS which is also most of what is written in relation to 26/27.5/29 which proves that I need to go to bed
If you have an amusing dig at my previous thread make sure you understand the point of it. You missed it entirely. haha
 
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SideFX

Likes Bikes and Dirt
At first I thought UCI should ban or stick to one wheel size , but then thought about it . banning just stops progression and puts more restrictions on bike companies . So I don't think banning or two many restriction should be made .
Could this be the start of the split of 26/27.5 and 29 wheel size within DH and are we heading towards 26 only events in the future .
 

frenchman

Eats cheese. Sells crack.
Yes science cannot prove everything that's exactly right. The field is filled with unexplainable phenomenons.
Where did I separate physics from science. I didn't. I said the physic's matters, at times science (including physics as its science) cannot explain everything but on the topic of wheel size it (meaning science and obviously physics) is one sided it is proven that a larger wheel has advantages over the smaller wheel.

Science does not prove or understand everything, anyone who believes so would be very naive.
While it may be true it has some advantages over a smaller wheel (they are fantastic for on road use!) it has not been proven that it is better for downhill until it has won on a world cup level. What is it that's so difficult to grasp?
 

driftking

Wheel size expert
While it may be true it has some advantages over a smaller wheel (they are fantastic for on road use!) it has not been proven that it is better for downhill until it has won on a world cup level. What is it that's so difficult to grasp?
My issue with using the wc to measure it is that it has to many variables affecting the outcome of a wc race. Mainly athlete variation. You would be better off testing a bunch of riders with both wheels and getting a margin of improvement per athlete taking away the variables of athlete skill and fitness.

The wc is a good guide but if you were to take a top 10 rider and a top 50 rider regardless if the slower rider was on a bigger wheel they would not win however the wheel still might be the better option.
 

frenchman

Eats cheese. Sells crack.
Your WC series would fucking suck.

In a sport that is time based the race track is the proving ground for why product A is better /faster than product B.
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
If you have an amusing dig at my previous thread make sure you understand the point of it. You missed it entirely. haha
I apologise if there was any doubt (dig at the thread not the person). I found the other thread interesting, I think I understood your point and admired your passion but is/isn't tabata didn't bother me one little bit...which this wheel size argument reminded me of. Look at the progression of downhill over the last 25 years, from downhill fire trails to ever rougher and more technical terrain, as long as downhill keeps going in that direction I don't care what the wheel size is, it is irrelevant...the argument should be about the riding we want to do and having equipment that makes it enjoyable.
 

0psi

Eats Squid
You guys still talking about wheel size?

You know what wheel size is the best? The one on the bike you are riding.
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
Science does not prove or understand everything, anyone who believes so would be very naive.
This is quite a good quote and very true.

Where science really shines is it's questioning and testing of hypothesis and a good non biased scientist will accept change to theories if the evidence supports a new hypothesis. I really like how the MTB community are questioning the bike industry in what appears to be their push to wipe out higher end 26 in bikes, to simply sell more bikes and like many have said, cycle this process back to 26 inch eventually. Questioning is good, blind obedience to an industry with a very strong agenda is bad - they have jumped from you must ride a 29 to you must ride a 27.5 in a VERY short amount of time considering the time it's taken for the evolution for suspension, disc brakes and various other things to occur.

In relation to wheel size, I haven't ridden a 27.5 or spent longer than 10 minutes on a 29. I'm not willing to spend any money to test the hypothesis that I may prefer riding a wheel size different from my 26. But, the scientist in me, would be more than happy to test this hypothesis if someone was to give me a bike for a few days, to ride in a variety of conditions (actually preferably just new wheels and 27.5 forks/dropouts so a fair comparison can be made), I don't give a shit about speed/time, just fun, therefore WC results mean little to my favorite hobby.

Random rant over.
 
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