The HiFi thread

[MasterOfReality]

Has anybody got a 12" SVS sub?

My 10" Wharfedale sucks the big one. Its currently stuck in a corner which means heaps of boomy crappy bass and a few bass nulls. If I sit directly in front of it I get my head blown off, if I sit on the other end of the lounge I can hardly hear it (its there but severely lacking). If I place the sub away from the corner then it needs to be screwed up to nearly max volume before it has any impact.

In short, its crap.

Any recommendations for a musical sub to go with Paradigm MillenniaOne sats?

Room details - formal living room is open both ends, don't know exact dimensions off hand but its not large. Photo below gives some idea. Thats a 50" plasma. Lounge is off to the right of the photo. Floor is polished porcelain, rug on floor, and curtains are heavy block out ones.

I'm pretty limited in terms of sub placement - it can only go where it is at the moment, or possible behind/next to the lounge.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Any sub will be awful in that position...has to be on the floor or a solid, non-resonant surface. Try moving it to your other possible position and giving it a whirl there.

It still won't rock your world given that it is (at 10") too small to be particularly useful. Although anything much bigger will overpower your little satellites. Best bet is to go with the sub that is actually matched to those speakers

more details here http://www.paradigm.com/products/series=millenia/model=milleniasub/page=overview and you also get some mounting ideas there too
which is available here http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/paradigm.htm

 

[MasterOfReality]

Thanks, I have looked at that sub a few times and for $1800 its a pretty big gamble. I might ring up the hifi store I got the speakers from to see if they have one in stock and see how it sounds.

I'll have a go at placing the sub near the lounge - just got to pick up a longer sub cable to hide under the rug. The rug is on a foam base which has channels cut out for speaker cables so you can't feel them when you walk over the rug.

If that doesn't work I'll just have to bite the bullet and look at this Paradigm sub. I'd love to stick that sub behind the TV or tuck it under the cabinet on the floor on the right side of the entertainment unit (where headphones are).

 

[Chalkie]

Slowly delving into the very dangerously expensive hifi world. Just bought a Rotel RA-12 and loving it. Simple, clean and great power paired with an old pair of DCM floor standing speakers.

On another note, has anyone built their own speakers off this website?
In particular this model. I'm into cabinetry and love tinkering so it seems like a good combination

 

[RIDEGIANT]

Full Yamaha 7.1 (stole it off dad ) with a Pioneer 16" sub which pumps out 1200 watts of awesome (ex Typhoon stereo system, sold the car and kept the stereo!)

All wired up to a Yammy unit which handles up to 12 speakers and a sub no worries.

Headphone-wise, Astro A40's with Mixamp Pro. Worth the coin, these are resigned to gaming but sh#t all over any other headphone I've used

 

[ajay]

There's no reason you should need a sub with half decent pair of tower speakers. Unless you're in a HUGE space (like a cinema), they're just overkill. Especially if you're trying to isolate components.

EDIT: ride giant, this is a HiFi thread, not a pmpo wank fest.
Look up pmpo/rms.

 

[scblack]

There's no reason you should need a sub with half decent pair of tower speakers. Unless you're in a HUGE space (like a cinema), they're just overkill. Especially if you're trying to isolate components.

I have just replaced my two tower speakers and found out this first hand. My new towers are so large they dwarf the sub.

I do think the sub is still useful though - it does add depth to movie sound. I am going to start playing around with a different location for it though, i'll put a pic up and see if someone can give some suggestions.

 

[markb84]

In a true Hi-Fi setup a sub would not typically be necessary providing that the loss end of the speakers frequency range is capable.

In my days working in Hi-fi I came across a couple of classical music aficionados that ended up buying subwoofers so that organ pieces such as Saint Sans could be produced accurately without overworking the bass units of the main speakers, they would typically have a very low crossover to the sub though, around 60Hz and those frequencies would never reach the crossover circuit of the speaker.

The biggest benefit of a subwoofer if setup correctly is that all of the work the sub is doing, your speakers are not doing, this allows for more precision and detail in the lower mid and upper bass.

Bass also create distortion in the signal path as it can cause the signal to travel back up the speaker cable and interfere with the high frequency input, this is one of the main principles that causes bi-wiring (not bi-amping) to improve the performance of speakers by separating the entrance points of cable at the crossover and never permitting the bass signal to interfere with the treble.

 

[MARKL]

Master of Reality - I would put the sub on the floor and move it round until it sounds better. Hopefully you can then work out a way to make it work with your furniture. I think you will still have problems with the proper Paradigm one if you stick it in that, or similar, location.

Sub v no sub? Maybe...but I am loving having a good sub in the system. I am amazed how well it blends in with music yet can still kick you in the guts during a movie. A mate of mine came around last night who has mixed for a few bands, I didn't mention the sub, dropped a piece of fabric over it and placed some crap around it. He is familiar with my system and how it sounds, I showed him the new ipad app to run the system played a couple tracks, he didn't realise there was a sub in the system till I showed him. He said he was trying to pick what had changed cause it sounded deeper but he couldn't pick the sub. Then rearranged internal organs with a couple of tracks and then watched Inception and got thrown around the lounge room for a couple of hours.

Forgot to mention headphones are Grado SR 225.

 

[MasterOfReality]

Thanks MARKL, the only place I have to put it is next to the lounge, which is on the right side of that pic (you can see its reflection in the tv). It will also be in a corner somewhat, but nowhere near as restrained like where it is now. I can't place it on the floor next to the entertainment unit as the wall stops and then you are in the dining room.

I bought the sats because of space limitations, and they do a pretty damn good job (as they should given what they cost). Just need to find a sub or sub position that will complement them nicely.

The Paradigm sub looks good, and with its shape can fit pretty much anywhere but its only really suited to smaller rooms. It would suit me right now but I don't want to spend that cash and then move house and find myself with a system too small for a particular room.

 

[Dales Cannon]

In a true Hi-Fi setup a sub would not typically be necessary providing that the loss end of the speakers frequency range is capable.

In my days working in Hi-fi I came across a couple of classical music aficionados that ended up buying subwoofers so that organ pieces such as Saint Sans could be produced accurately without overworking the bass units of the main speakers, they would typically have a very low crossover to the sub though, around 60Hz and those frequencies would never reach the crossover circuit of the speaker.

The biggest benefit of a subwoofer if setup correctly is that all of the work the sub is doing, your speakers are not doing, this allows for more precision and detail in the lower mid and upper bass.

Bass also create distortion in the signal path as it can cause the signal to travel back up the speaker cable and interfere with the high frequency input, this is one of the main principles that causes bi-wiring (not bi-amping) to improve the performance of speakers by separating the entrance points of cable at the crossover and never permitting the bass signal to interfere with the treble.

This is exactly what we do though we take the preamp out and run it through a low pass filter which sends that signal to the sub amp and sub and then the power amp and speakers only deal with the higher frequencies.

Any sub sitting on furniture will sound muddy and hollow. Spike it to a heavy floor to get nice clean punchy bass.

 

[MARKL]

The other issue is your room is effectively much bigger as it opens into the dining room and I assume the entry. I reckon the spot by your lounge may work (looking at a reflection in a tv screen on a photo, haha).

I would go large now rather than small. Obviously by my thread above I have always bought with an eye to the future, good speakers last if you don't abuse them and they are the most important part of your system. My Sub 15 was a lightly used demo with the mounting tabs for the grill broken, took 5 minutes to replace - bargain at $1999.

 

[scblack]

I have just replaced my two tower speakers and found out this first hand. My new towers are so large they dwarf the sub.

I do think the sub is still useful though - it does add depth to movie sound. I am going to start playing around with a different location for it though, i'll put a pic up and see if someone can give some suggestions.

Here is the pic of my setup:

• Denon amp
• 60 inch Panasonic plasma
• Yamaha NS-777 front speakers
• Yamaha sub woofer - 200w or 300w not quite sure
• Sony centre and satellite speakers
• Panasonic Blu-ray player
• Telstra t-box

You can see the sub tucked away to the right beside the speaker with the plate and fake candle on top. I have always thought the sub had to be ideally near the front of the system. But now I have such large front speakers its almost unnecessary there. Is it worth my trying the sub elsewhere around the room? I do have an ultra long cable for the sub. The room is 5.5m basically square, with the kitchen leading off the back left and the walkway to the back right, also big triple glass door on the left. If you put a sub beside or behind your listening position does that really affect the outcome?

Any ideas?

 

[MasterOfReality]

I'm going wander down to Jaycar today and pick up a 5 m sub cable, and then try the sub next to the lounge.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Slowly delving into the very dangerously expensive hifi world. Just bought a Rotel RA-12 and loving it. Simple, clean and great power paired with an old pair of DCM floor standing speakers.

On another note, has anyone built their own speakers off this website?
In particular this model. I'm into cabinetry and love tinkering so it seems like a good combination

I haven't built any of their speaker kits but I've dealt with Leon (the guy behind Soundlabs) a few times over the years - he's a very fair, useful and knowledgable man. There's not much wrong with the Visaton drivers either.

The Loudspeaker Kit is also worth a shot as Paul behind that mob is a complete guru nutter when it comes to this sort of thing...

In the end...keep it simple. All I have is a Cambridge Audio CD player feeding an (Oz made) NAKSA 80 power amplifier with built in attenuator that drives a pair of (Oz made) Krix Lyrix floorstanders. And this combo is simple one button awesome.

 

[Ezkaton]

I'm too poor for a full hifi setup, my money tends to go elsewhere... but I did just order some studio monitor headphones.

Audio Technica ATH-M50s

I have a friend who does music mixing/mastering, etc... loves his studio monitors (heard them a couple weeks ago - they're amazing!) and recommended these.
Should be nicer than my Sennheiser HD-555 and the tacky, cheaply made, way overpriced bullshit Astro A40 gaming headset I've got (which has a snapped headband after falling 2ft and landing on carpet).

Anyone else here dig headphones? Or is everyone into full A/V setups?

 

[silentbutdeadly]

If you put a sub beside or behind your listening position does that really affect the outcome?

Any ideas?

Yes it does...not that long ago I had a listen to a prototype active loudspeaker system. The speaker has a plate amp and digital crossover built into the box and you program the crossover based on the room response using a computer. All you need is a CD player with a digital output. Works extremely well...would be adaptable to almost any room. Sounds quite brilliant...

there's more info here http://www.hifizine.com/2013/09/the-mini-convertible-active-loudspeaker-design/

...anyway...the subs for this system (there are two) are small isobarik down firing units that are intended to sit beside or behind the listener. They reinforce the frequencies that the main speakers can't deliver quite as well but they won't work with the right impact if they are too far from the listener.

If the end...the closer you are to the sub...the greater the effect. But at the same time...you need to dial in the sub settings appropriately even then to get the greatest 'musical' effect out of it.

Basically try it for yourself and see how it rolls...

 

[MARKL]

View attachment 282342
You can see the sub tucked away to the right beside the speaker with the plate and fake candle on top. I have always thought the sub had to be ideally near the front of the system. But now I have such large front speakers its almost unnecessary there. Is it worth my trying the sub elsewhere around the room? I do have an ultra long cable for the sub. The room is 5.5m basically square, with the kitchen leading off the back left and the walkway to the back right, also big triple glass door on the left. If you put a sub beside or behind your listening position does that really affect the outcome?

Any ideas?

Once the sound wave becomes longer than the space you are in it becomes harder to pick where the sound is coming from. Basically the lower you cross over to the sub the less chance you have of picking where it is. For reference 60Hz is about 5.5m long, as you go below this the less chance you have of picking where the sound is coming from, however it sounds like there are other spaces that interact and will impact. Given that you have good towers try the cross over at around 40Hz and move the sub around. It will depend on how the sub interacts with other surfaces and may cause some phase issues. The other issue is the sub is relatively small compared to the towers.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Anyone else here dig headphones? Or is everyone into full A/V setups?

Nice choice though a bit boomy in the bass for my taste. Which is why I don't often use headphones (though I do use a pair of Audiofly AF45 earbuds) since most closed phones these days seem to go mental for bass unless you invest seriously....

 

[MasterOfReality]

silentbutdeadly, whats your opinion on things like Audyssey room correction/calibration?

I'm limited to whatever Cambridge Audio uses in their Azur amps, which seems pretty simple (distance and volume) and effective.

From what I have read, some argue that room corrections just masks bad performance/amps, others argue its the bees knees.