The HiFi thread
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MARKL
Eats Squid
Nice. I wasn't sure if this was a separate system to the one you described before.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
Yeh it's a bit confusing. Currently they sit on the home theatre through the reciever. When the move happens they will go to the audio room and home theatre will go back to crappy 5.1 satelite speakers. So yeah I am in no rush for an amp, but will eventualyl need one, and looks like I will need a second set of bookshelf speakers (preferably cheaper) for the home theatre too - although the option is to go even bigger and better and downgrade the 685 to home theatre duties.
At the moment it doesn't play well with the receiver and passive sub. The crossover is set quite high (no idea what freq but noticably high) and I can't get it to switch the sub off for the life of me - even when i disconnect the actual sub, it still thinks its there and misses the low range.
At the moment it doesn't play well with the receiver and passive sub. The crossover is set quite high (no idea what freq but noticably high) and I can't get it to switch the sub off for the life of me - even when i disconnect the actual sub, it still thinks its there and misses the low range.
Oooo, missed this thread.
So, as for the chap looking for a new amp, I spent ages demoing various 2 chan amps. Lugging my speakers around and occasionally getting a home demo of a few choices.
In the end I ended up getting a Cambridge Audio Azur 851W to power my ~6Ohm VAF Research DC X63's
It is a damn nice piece of kit for the price.
I currently rock:
Cambridge Audio CXN Network
Cambridge Audio Azur 851W Power Amplifier
VAF Research DC X63 Speakers
I rate this: mad setup/10
Pics: (last one is a stock photo of the stepped delay corrected internals of a X63)
So, as for the chap looking for a new amp, I spent ages demoing various 2 chan amps. Lugging my speakers around and occasionally getting a home demo of a few choices.
In the end I ended up getting a Cambridge Audio Azur 851W to power my ~6Ohm VAF Research DC X63's
It is a damn nice piece of kit for the price.
I currently rock:
Cambridge Audio CXN Network
Cambridge Audio Azur 851W Power Amplifier
VAF Research DC X63 Speakers
I rate this: mad setup/10
Pics: (last one is a stock photo of the stepped delay corrected internals of a X63)
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link1896
Mr Greenfield
Ahh I love two channel
My current system, that's actually apart atm while I build my media room is:
Htpc with aes output.
Tact rcs processor
Elektra Audio amps
Three way Tri amped speakers, 12" peerless xls woofers crossed at 200hz to focal 5" Kevlar mids, crossed at 2800hz to Eaton's air motion transformer tweeters.
couple of peerless xxls subwoofers with twin passive radiators tuned very low, and an isobaric 18" eminence subwoofer with mass loading to lower fs, being poked along with >1kw.
My current system, that's actually apart atm while I build my media room is:
Htpc with aes output.
Tact rcs processor
Elektra Audio amps
Three way Tri amped speakers, 12" peerless xls woofers crossed at 200hz to focal 5" Kevlar mids, crossed at 2800hz to Eaton's air motion transformer tweeters.
couple of peerless xxls subwoofers with twin passive radiators tuned very low, and an isobaric 18" eminence subwoofer with mass loading to lower fs, being poked along with >1kw.
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Calvin27
Eats Squid
Wow you are in another league to me. I just hope your bike is worth at least as much as that setup otherwise GTFO lol!
You've got me back on cambridge now. I actually prefer their build, but most reviews are quite neutral *(not sounds neutral, as in so so about their overall offering). Like MarkL says though, I am no hardcore audiophile and find it hard to compare. I am not hardcore enough to lug speakers around to test and even then i think the setup of the room accounts for a lot. Problem is I can't manage to test all amps against each other in an ideal setting. One store might let me compare 3 brands they stock, and then another also, but then they'd use different speakers, or have a padded theatre room.
Changing my mind now and there is a cracker deal with the cambridge SR10 for $500, but something tells me that in order of rit to offer mor power and specs compared to a 351 for the same price, something is compromised.
You've got me back on cambridge now. I actually prefer their build, but most reviews are quite neutral *(not sounds neutral, as in so so about their overall offering). Like MarkL says though, I am no hardcore audiophile and find it hard to compare. I am not hardcore enough to lug speakers around to test and even then i think the setup of the room accounts for a lot. Problem is I can't manage to test all amps against each other in an ideal setting. One store might let me compare 3 brands they stock, and then another also, but then they'd use different speakers, or have a padded theatre room.
Changing my mind now and there is a cracker deal with the cambridge SR10 for $500, but something tells me that in order of rit to offer mor power and specs compared to a 351 for the same price, something is compromised.
Always get more power than you think you will need. More power = more headroom = more impact/Dynamics.
And yes, my bikes owe me quite a bit as well...
Drive a hard bargain, you would not believe how much room there is to move from RRP. My 851W was $3600RRP and I picked it up for $2800 with some haggling and combining with the CXN.
Also don't fall into the trap of them bundling $$$ cables either. Copper is copper.
edit:
Just noticed that those B&W 685 s2's drop down to 3.5ohms, so if you start turning it up, your amp is going to hate you.
And yes, my bikes owe me quite a bit as well...
Drive a hard bargain, you would not believe how much room there is to move from RRP. My 851W was $3600RRP and I picked it up for $2800 with some haggling and combining with the CXN.
Also don't fall into the trap of them bundling $$$ cables either. Copper is copper.
edit:
Just noticed that those B&W 685 s2's drop down to 3.5ohms, so if you start turning it up, your amp is going to hate you.
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I have a Rotel RA-12 which is entry level with heaps of connectivity. This is the main reason I bought it. I have had amps and DACs and phono stages but it all gets messy (and too hard for the better half).
Although it isn't the best pure amp for the price, speakers make such a massive difference that it isn't really noticeable, especially for daily listening.
Although it isn't the best pure amp for the price, speakers make such a massive difference that it isn't really noticeable, especially for daily listening.
MARKL
Eats Squid
Nice set up Olie.
From a headroom perspective I also like to look at the maximum power consumption as this tends to give a rough indication about how much power the unit can deal with - this impacts the headroom or its capacity to say drive two sets of speakers. The Onkyo maximum power consumption is 135 watts (remember it is claiming to deliver 2x65 =130watts), the Cambridge has a max consumption of 500watts which is considerably more than the 85x2=170 watts it is claiming or even 4x85 if running two sets of speakers. Now there are a million other things that come into it but an amps job is to make power (watts) and you can't get out more than you put in, you can't even get out what you put in due to heat losses etc. I read once that typically you are talking 30% per channel :noidea: and who knows how accurate the manufactures figures are but it seems unlikely that you are going to get 2x65watts if the total system max is 135watts...
The comparison thing is hard though you may get two of them on the same setup, say the Cambridge and the Onkyo. Eastwood HiFi in Sydney do both for example.
Agree with the above especially in relation to headroom. Whilst more power is better as a general rule for the reasons outlined above, though it is a rough rule. If it is say 80 vs 85 watts - don't worry about it in my book it is in-material. In this case we are at Onkyo 65w vs Cambridge (and HK) 85watts/channel that is a noticeable difference.
From a headroom perspective I also like to look at the maximum power consumption as this tends to give a rough indication about how much power the unit can deal with - this impacts the headroom or its capacity to say drive two sets of speakers. The Onkyo maximum power consumption is 135 watts (remember it is claiming to deliver 2x65 =130watts), the Cambridge has a max consumption of 500watts which is considerably more than the 85x2=170 watts it is claiming or even 4x85 if running two sets of speakers. Now there are a million other things that come into it but an amps job is to make power (watts) and you can't get out more than you put in, you can't even get out what you put in due to heat losses etc. I read once that typically you are talking 30% per channel :noidea: and who knows how accurate the manufactures figures are but it seems unlikely that you are going to get 2x65watts if the total system max is 135watts...
freddofrog
Likes Dirt
Ooh, just noticed this thread.
You can get a fairly good indication of performance just by looking at an amp. If it has move functions than the Millennium Falcon, it is home stereo. It if has just one on/off button, it is hi-fi.
Here's my humble unit
You can get a fairly good indication of performance just by looking at an amp. If it has move functions than the Millennium Falcon, it is home stereo. It if has just one on/off button, it is hi-fi.
Here's my humble unit
redbruce
Eats Squid
As a generalisation perhaps, but in absolute terms the last comment re B&W impedance (and applies especially to those with Kef B139 or any other driver that has an impedance profile that varies significantly with frequency) is more critical. The important issue is matching amp with drivers, that is after you have decided the sound colouring you prefer, but then your choice of speaker has already dictated that for the most part.
Agree with caution on bundling but the comment re copper is copper, is interesting, and well, wrong.
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link1896
Mr Greenfield
Move past the marketing BS, it is very thick in the 2 channel world. Copper purity isn't a topic of concern. Primary concern is geometry, this effects the magnetic field's shape.
For those on a budget, Jon Risch's DIY cables are very hard to beat.
http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/index2.htm
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redbruce
Eats Squid
Agree. Statement "copper is copper" didn't discriminate and infers its a no gain area.
I have also found TNT audio to be a good source of info for DIY.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html
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link1896
Mr Greenfield
Many many many manufacturers still being deceitful on impedance dips in all market segments ( domestic, pro, commercial ). During commissioning these days I use the Dayton Dats woofer tester for full small signal T&S data collection. It's so quick and easy, 2-3 seconds for everything. I still see 20-50% differences in many drivers free air resonance. Very few manufacturers will match drivers, even with two 18" drivers in a bin wired in parallel.
redbruce
Eats Squid
And why selecting an amplifier that can handle difficult loads may also be important for a particular setup.
I destroyed two amplifiers (two and three times respectively the max power rating of my IMF TLS 80's) before I had them tested only to find the (apparently well known but not relayed to me during those amp purchases) a significant impedance drop with frequency (as low as 2.5 ohm) and the current amps selected accordingly.
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Calvin27
Eats Squid
I tried to run this check through all the amps I have on my list (at the moment still in two worlds about audible difference for me, especially when I'm not lugging speakers around to test!). The problem I come up with is not that the Onkyo is comparably low powered, but that the cambridge stuff seems about double what typical amps in the class run. For example the entry level AM10 is rated 35wpc rms, with a whopping max power draw. Compared to others that are rated 40wpc they draw: PM5005 110w, Onkyo 9010 155w. Not sure what's going on but in my list the cambridge is actually the one that looks overstated. This doesn't help at all. Previously I've been using the weight indicator and that came up with strange results too. I assume all in this lower end amp will be the same class d and no valves lol so technically they shouldn't vary max power too much for the same wpc.
redbruce
Eats Squid
For AV collective wisdom seems to be there is minimal sonic difference between different manufacturers product (at a given price point).
Manufacturers are also deceitful with power ratings (http://www.cnet.com/au/news/whats-up-with-watts-how-much-power-do-you-need/). One of the cheats is quoting output of a single channel running only. Worth checking what the minimum power is all channels driven.
For mine, I'd be looking at spending a bit more to get above 50wpc (RMS), all channels driven, more if your room is large.
The 685's are a nice speaker for music also but you will need to consider something with sufficient current capacity to mange your speakers dynamic impedance.
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MARKL
Eats Squid
At the end of the day listening to them on your speakers in the your living room would be the best way of making the decision, we are looking at numbers, bashing away on keyboards when a few minutes listening would give the best answer...and you have to live with your choice not us:behindsofa:
Overstating :noidea: we are relying on manufacturers figures here and without properly testing them all it is impossible to say which is under or overstating, my point is that amps need to consume much more power than what they put out, typically Class AB amps are only 50% efficient. If that is true there is no way the Onkyo or Marantz can out put there claimed RMS power through both channels at the same time. In any case the HK is a better match for the Cambridge as it also claims 85w/channel and it claims a maximum power consumption of 310 watts - remember all the figures are rubbery. Not the greatest example but my Paradigm Sub 15 uses two 850watt RMS, Class D amps (which are more efficient than the amps that we are talking about) and it has a claimed max power consumption of 2,500 watts.
The consolation is that in any case the amp remains less critical than the speaker and all will probably deliver acceptable performance. It would be worth speaking to a dealer that is familiar with the speakers and any foibles it has, such as the drop from 8 to 3.5 ohms, how this affects set up and amps it works good/bad with. Reducing the load to the amplifier by that much has potentially significant impacts, if the amplifier has the capacity it should increase its power out put to more than double...how will the amp cope with this? Will it remain stable or will it fry itself? My expectation is that they won't but one may work substantially better with the set up than the others.
This is my point