eBikes - what's the current perspective

[cramhobart]

That one is a toughie. However, nationally the maximum speed limit is 110 IIRC (NT no longer has those limitless roads) however even a normal family sedan and easily exceed 160...and we sell cars that go 300+. Obviously the upper limits to these machines are not catered for in a 'legal' environment (short of taking it on a track) however these vehicles are still readily available. We don't institute a regulation capping car speeds to say 125...(I am not in favour of this by the way - just mentioned for illustrative purposes)? Perhaps not the best analogy...but I think the point stands nonetheless.

The problem with your analogy is that there is a training and licensing requirement to drive a car- and in many states more powerful cars are restricted to people with several years experience. Add to that active policing, none of which applies to mtb- so you have the potential for some 120kg guy who thinks he's Sam Hill to go and buy something like the nicolai, drop in his "moto patch" and turn up at the local mtb park with no skills, and a vehicle that weighs 130kgs and can do 60kph. Meanwhile at the same park there is a 14yo on a stp riding on the Dh track.. See the problem?? Or the local cross country loop, groomed trail, bermed corners with a flowy section that gains height. The track can be ridden both ways, going down an expert rider might hit 40kph limited by technical dificulty, going up 15kph, limited by lung capacity-so you have a potential max converging speed of 55- but you allow ebikes on that track and things can change significantly-and while it might improve things for a few, IMO it can make things a whole lot worse for the majority.

 

[Dark Knight]

No matter how much those that use them try to argue the benefits, ebikes still remain to me like electric shopping carts, some people genuinely need them but most are just too fat and lazy to use their legs.

In a society that has an obesity epidemic, if ebikes get those fat and lazy sods off their arses then I guess it's a good thing.

Duane my good man - that's sailing perilously close to a direct insult, although it's probably somewhat accurate in my case so I'll let it slide.

As I said as was expecting to be flamed much more than I have...and I knew when initiating this thread that I would be like the 300 up against the Persian army (i.e. drastically outnumbered) however I feel that I've put in some reasonably cogent reasoning for the positive sides - for the main rebuttals to be 'stay off my trails' and 'all ebike riders are fat and lazy' I could say is the sign of intellectually challenged luddites...but I won't.

Let me continue with the cogent reasoning if you'll bear with me. I'll use some empirical and anecdotal evidence...

Empirical evidence

The story of yours truly - I used to ride long and often - to work, on trails, a little down hill etc...and then along came a couple of young kids and a house that needed building and for a wee while I got off the bike. Too many pies and too much beer later, when I mounted the steed again I was seriously gassing...even on the commute to work (especialy the big hill just before home - short but lethal). In my fatness and laziness, back in the garage the bike went collecting dust and the car was my mode de la transport to work. I then had the chance (and I thought tongue in cheek) to have a go on an electric bike, and proceeded to buy one very shortly after.

Since then, I have ridden everyday to work (except when the bike was in the shop) rain hail or shine, I've dumped 10kg off the human engine and more to go. Could I have just simply jumped on the bike in my garage and achieved the same - absolutely - it would have saved me a good sum of money and probably got me into shape earlier. Would have I though...maybe....but the bike had been collecting dust for nigh on 3 years (shameful I know) and counting. What I do know is that since buying the ebike, I've ridden every single day, dropped the weight, looking at more human powered bikes, sold the car (so net much better off) and stopped spitting carcigens in the air out of it's exhaust (although someone else is doing it now) and get to work quicker and happier and part of the reason for joining Rotorburn is I'm planning on a investing in a decent downhill rig at sometime (as well as another ebike I'm going to build up) to get back on the proper trails again...another win. Would have this happened without the ebike - possibly yes but that's simple conjecture - has it happened with the ebike...unreservedly so.

So yes, I am 'arguing the benefits' of an ebike although I have no need to justify it's ownership to anyone. That justification exists in terms of the fact that I'm back on a bike, looking at building up a down hiller and not polluting our earth more than is needed. I'm moving from Obese to well under obese and couldn't be happier. Going from fat and lazy to not so fat and lazy and the ebike was the instigator in this case (I remember the days when it used to be for the girls....:eyebrows.


Anecdotal evidence

An acquaintance of mine was living 25kms from CBD and in financial distress. Could no longer afford to run a car and didn't live near enough to a reasonable public transport link - their solution - convert their bike into an ebike. Another story of weight loss, one less car on the road and a happy camper. It was clear that there was no way they would cycle 25kms to work on a normal bike (that's good going for anyone) however with an ebike they've been doing virtually non-stop since...and are currently looking into a road bike (urghh...could become a dreaded lycra...) and will be looking to build themselves up to perhaps riding only the road bike. Would any of this happened without them using the stepping stone of an ebike...? Possibly - but it defintely did happen with an ebike - another fats to less fats story.



Many people are fat and many people are lazy. Most, including me, as a result of their own actiions however if there is a device that encourages people into a more active frame of mind, potentially reduces car use etc. etc. then I for one think it's a positive thing. I'll concede it does make my blood boil a little when the simple minded 'fat and lazy' line is pulled out, especially when I have seen personally the benefits of these bikes. As mentioned previously. it would be nice if all posters did some research, checked out some of the options available and watched some youtube videos, have a think and actually read the posts I make and rebut them in a reasoned manner.

I'll sign off with if it's good enough for Nico Vouilloz, it's good enough for me...

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?278308-Schooling-the-Roadies-Nico-Vouilloz-and-his-eBike

 

[pink poodle]

I see one of these things tearing up my trails, I'm going to have something to say about. And it will be about as polite as moto riders get from me....

 

[Koper25]

I don't get the idea of e-bikes. If I didn't want to pedal, I'd go back to riding moto. For me part of the fun of trail riding is the physical challenge. That's my 2c, so many variables to this discussion though.

 

[johnny]

Motored vehicles for moto-trails.

Why? Because trails are crowded enough as it is, if you make riding easier then the trails will become more crowded. It's an assumption and a generalisation but I believe it's reasonable to assume that people who aren't interested in making the effort to ride a self-powered vehicle probably wouldn't be interested in spending a day on a shovel or barrow either.

Where I see this headed is the trails becoming more crowded with less interested people. Not what I want so keep motored vehicles off MTB trails, I say.

And pooh pooh to whatever the legal definition of a motorbike is. Such definitions are irrelevant to my reasoning here.

 

[thecat]

For the over powered things I think it's clear cut that they are electric motor bikes and should be treated as such

As for the legally rated power assisted (or whatever they are called) bikes.... Well, you have me thinking.

My immediate thoughts are I don't want them on my trails... But that is the same sort of argument extreme lobbists walkers put up against mountain bikes.

My worry is that we have made a lot of head way with land managers based on our recreation being human powered, self reliant and thus in keeping with National Parks and wilderness ideals, and the fitness benefits of pedalling yourself are a good sell for government departments in an age of rising obesity and illness.

Start throwing motors into the equation, no matter how limited in power and it muddies the water.

As others have said if you are fit enough to throw a bike around single track, you are fit enough to pedal it yourself.

I guess the onus is on the power assist bicycle enthusiasts to show they can be sustainable and unobtrusive and therefore should be oked for use on trails.

I think it will go down similar route , though may be with a shorter time line, as mountain bikes have gone. ie While they are out there in limited numbers they will fly under the radar for a bit and tolerated too and extent. but as the popularity grows (and it seems it will) there will be more and more resistance and resentment flung at them by "traditional" tail users. They will then need to from lobby organisations, gather evidence and plead their case. Whether the outcome of that is them again acceptance, like MTB as steadily done over the last decade or so, or it goes the other way only time will tell

 

[Dark Knight]

For the over powered things I think it's clear cut that they are electric motor bikes and should be treated as such

As for the legally rated power assisted (or whatever they are called) bikes.... Well, you have me thinking.

My immediate thoughts are I don't want them on my trails... But that is the same sort of argument extreme lobbists walkers put up against mountain bikes.

My worry is that we have made a lot of head way with land managers based on our recreation being human powered, self reliant and thus in keeping with National Parks and wilderness ideals, and the fitness benefits of pedalling yourself are a good sell for government departments in an age of rising obesity and illness.

Start throwing motors into the equation, no matter how limited in power and it muddies the water.

As others have said if you are fit enough to throw a bike around single track, you are fit enough to pedal it yourself.

I guess the onus is on the power assist bicycle enthusiasts to show they can be sustainable and unobtrusive and therefore should be oked for use on trails.

I think it will go down similar route , though may be with a shorter time line, as mountain bikes have gone. ie While they are out there in limited numbers they will fly under the radar for a bit and tolerated too and extent. but as the popularity grows (and it seems it will) there will be more and more resistance and resentment flung at them by "traditional" tail users. They will then need to from lobby organisations, gather evidence and plead their case. Whether the outcome of that is them again acceptance, like MTB as steadily done over the last decade or so, or it goes the other way only time will tell

Hi there thecat

Thanks for taking the time to read through the thread - and for a reasoned and thoughtful response - much appreciated.

I was actually going to mention the walker versus mtbers 'debate' which is very recent history but thought I'd leave it out for the time being... Having now raised it though, it is a slightly different situation as regardless of the opinion of johnny above, the 250W limited ebikes are legally considered bikes. To my understanding, this means they are legally allowed to go anywhere that a bike can go - shared paths, bike only paths and mtb trails included. They must be human powered with e-ssist only and no throttle - i.e. if the rider don't pedal, the bike don't go. As a result, there would be no need for lobbying like the mtb crew (I was a small part of this) had to do in terms of obtaining legal permissions and access to natural areas...however there certainly is a need to prove it's sustainable and unobtrusive in order to garner acceptance from the 'traditional' mtbers... This thread was initiated in an intent to engender some debate and increase awareness on both sides...although it's clear from a majority of the responses that ebikers are going to have there work cut out for them to convert opinion.

Bear in mind, myself (and the few other ebikers I know) often ride both ebikes and non ebikes. Each serve's a different purpose for different people at different times. All I'm hoping to do is raise some awareness in hostile territory and get out alive :yo: I've helped build my share of trails and I've sat on the non ebike side of the fence, and now I'm on the other side and have personally seen the benefits. No, they're not for everyone however it would be nice to see the automatic negative rhetoric take a back seat and some thought being applied to the discussion - as you have done.

Although I did ask 'what's the current perspective' in the title...and weight of numbers is showing me what that is.

Well, I'll continue to enjoy all my bikes - both e and non e.

 

[pink poodle]

Hey Dark knight, how do I get one of bikes? You seem to know a fair bit about them...

A while ago in nsw there was a plague of morons riding electro assist pedal powered bikes that looked like step through scooters (vespa etc). They were a monstrous hazard to all road users and pedestrians. Eventually the rta banned them. Rightly so.

I have seen a few of these oversized bikes floating around Newcastle and the guy whole retails/wholesales/sells them in his bright yellow van....he comes off as a real dickhead that actually doesn't know anything about mountain bikes or the mountain bike community. Just a businessman who sees the dollars.

 

[Klips]

As I said as was expecting to be flamed much more than I have...and I knew when initiating this thread that I would be like the 300 up against the Persian army (i.e. drastically outnumbered) however I feel that I've put in some reasonably cogent reasoning for the positive sides - for the main rebuttals to be 'stay off my trails' and 'all ebike riders are fat and lazy' I could say is the sign of intellectually challenged luddites...but I won't.

This opening statement says to me "I came here to pick a fight, and I'm surprised no one has fought back". Not the most positive way to approach it.

The key reason, as stated or kind of alluded to in other posts, is the impact on the trails. Most trails at least where I live, are either dug by volunteers or partially offset by race funding. People who are so unfit as to be unable to ride trails without mechanical assistance would be unable to do the former and ineligible for the latter. When you combine this with a higher impact on the trails - both uphill in the corners, mud and other and downhill in the damage formed by additional mass under brakes - you have a situation where they will likely be doing more impact than the average trail user while contributing less. Of *course* this will lead to conflicts, and an attitude of "get off my trails". Until this is resolved, either through full subsidisation of all trails open to the public (hah) or some other contribution mechanism, there will be a distinct inequality and likely a degradation of the experience for existing users.

Oh, and speaking as (primarily) a roadie - if they want to lose weight and/or gain strength, get them on the road. Rides that burn fat aren't the high intensity ones like you'll get doing XC with a motor under you, they're the long, moderately paced ones which are actually really enjoyable once you start seeing progress (which is almost immediate). Once they're able to do MTB without assistance, then they'll be welcomed on the trails just like any other user.

 

[pink poodle]

^^^ and the impact of acceleration. The impact of such a device as this on the trails would be much closer to that of a petrol powered motor cycle than a push bike.

I don't give a shit if the owners are fat or skinny. It is the machine I have issue with.

The engine is practically silent. One of these coming up a dh trail would surprise all 4m of intesitne out your bum hole on a blind corner or lander. At least with a petrol powered motor cycle you can sort of hear them coming...

As one of my chums not so politely put it to some moto riders on the couramba trail a while back...there's thousands of kms of fire road and trail for you guys to ride here. The club puts a lot of effort into this trail for mountain bikers to use. So fuck off.

 

[wkkie]

This is all sounding a bit sales pitchy to me.....

 

[pharmaboy]

Geez guys it's a bike with a little electric motor, it's not a fucking motorbike.

It's like truck drivers talking about car drivers or cyclists talking about car drivers.

Whatever gets more bikes on the roads, paths etc is great. At least I won't come round a corner going up a hill and find an e bike pushing along like I see repcos being pushed.

There are a myriad of reasons that people have difficulty mountain biking up steep trails, and an e bike might just be the tool that allows the realisation of how much fun it can be and start the process of getting fit - unless of course they displace any of my strava top 10's, then they can go get fucked! ;D

 

[T-Rex]

Those "electrically assisted" bikes have a good place for commuting, especially on hilly terrain or in hot climates, so you don't have to work up a sweat. I would love to be able to commute to work and not have to shower to the other end.

But on the trail.... Get a real bike. If you are not fit enough to ride the trails you want to ride, start out on flatter less technical trails, and work your way up.

As thecat says, land access for Mtb is hard enough as it is, without having these contraptions buzzing around and blurring the lines between moto and bicycle.

 

[Ivan]

I have no problem with pedal assisted bikes like the Lapierre Overvolt or the haibike range.
Some Pro's put out more watts that these bikes do.

 

[The Duckmeister]

We had a guy in our Red Hill group last Sunday on a power-assisted Glory (DH bike is massive overkill on a XC ride!). The guy was using it to give a bit of a boost uphill - even opened up it was only enough to keep pace with the rest of the bunch, certainly a long way from disappearing in a cloud of dirt moto-style. When the track pointed downward, the guy could well outride any assistance the motor could give.

Based on that kind of observation, I don't really see an issue with power-assist bikes, which is what the legally accepted ones are (they must still rely on human power as the primary motive source). The big-arse motorbikes that sort of aren't are a a quite different beast, and I don't think there's a place for those things anywhere.

 

[russmu66]

If I had the money... I'd buy one.
I like the Cube Hybrid one... uses the Bosch pedal assist motor... no throttle.
I certainly couldn't see it as my only bike... but as a fun way of getting in more downhill runs after work... hell yeh!

 

[wombat]

^^^ and the impact of acceleration. The impact of such a device as this on the trails would be much closer to that of a petrol powered motor cycle than a push bike.

I don't give a shit if the owners are fat or skinny. It is the machine I have issue with.

You do realise that the ones the OP is talking about are only 'pedal assisted', they're not a twist-the-throttle-and-go-arrangement, right? Yeah, they'll take the load of your legs riding up hill, but they don't lead to the massive speeds that people seem to be talking about a lot here.

Can't say I have any realy objection to them yet. Hell, I think it's pretty dumb to get all up in arms based on some assumptions of what they will/won't do to our precious past time. At least e-bikes don't leave piles of shit all over the trail like horses do.

 

[johnny]

This is all sounding a bit sales pitchy to me.....

Yeah, crossed my mind as well.

 

[pink poodle]

Yeah, crossed my mind as well.

that makes 3 of us. I call spam! as per my earlier 'where do you get them...?' this guy's too heavy on the tech spiel and justifications to just be a casual rider.

You do realise that the ones the OP is talking about are only 'pedal assisted', they're not a twist-the-throttle-and-go-arrangement, right? Yeah, they'll take the load of your legs riding up hill, but they don't lead to the massive speeds that people seem to be talking about a lot here.

Can't say I have any realy objection to them yet. Hell, I think it's pretty dumb to get all up in arms based on some assumptions of what they will/won't do to our precious past time. At least e-bikes don't leave piles of shit all over the trail like horses do.

yeah I understand the differences. I have seen these things in action, and (as per my earlier post) had the pleasure of the company of someone trying to sell them. I hold my position. but I agree with you wholeheartedly about horses! great animal, but no place in national parks etc nor around people. especially the horses that get jittery.

 

[floody]

Give me a pedal only bike worth the same coin as an e-bike and I'll show you a vastly better bike every time. I know what I'd rather ride; even though I'm fat and lazy.