eBikes - what's the current perspective

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Flow-Rider

Burner
I thought wheels didn't spin on dirt?
Even the 250 watt ones will spin. If I can occasionally spin on a climb at roughly under 150 watt human power, imagine how easy it would be with double that and more on a pedalic. They can also spike up to 500 watts, so in fact you may be dropping something like 750 watts in one hit to the back wheel. :mmph:
 

Ivan

Eats Squid
Even the 250 watt ones will spin. If I can occasionally spin on a climb at roughly under 150 watt human power, imagine how easy it would be with double that and more on a pedalic. They can also spike up to 500 watts, so in fact you may be dropping something like 750 watts in one hit to the back wheel. :mmph:
Your underestimating your power, and overstating pedalec bike outputs.

If this community is going to have a discussion about eBikes, it needs to be with accurate numbers.

The average cyclist can put out around 200w for 15 to 20 minutes. An athlete can do 400w to 500w over that same period.

The average cyclist can have an instantaneous peak power (like when you strain to get over that large root on a steep climb) of around 800w, whilst an athlete can be well over 1000watts.

In that context, in situations when you may spin the wheel on a difficult steep climb (peak power) your really only supplementing your power by 25%, which may bring the average rider close to the output of an athlete. And over a long climb, your output would also be supplemented to be roughly equivalent to an athlete.

It would allow flow-rider to ride as far or as fast as a Julien Absalon. Or alternatively, you can run wider tyres for extra grip, and not notice the extra drag.

I don't see these bikes that supplement power up to 250w, and only up to 30kmh having a noticeable impact on the trails.

On the 500w output, I only remember reading about one bike that does that and that's the Specialized Levo. And they are a bit weird when mention that 500w is available sometimes as torque. No idea what they mean by that but it sounds a lot like marketing speil

All I've said above is only relevant for bikes without a throttle (pedalec). Bikes with a throttle are likely to cause damage to trails.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
^ Ivan...from what I'm seeing the average rider also skids way too much. In reality skids are probably the greatest enemy of the trail...average riders need to skid less. Lots less...especially in berms and steep chutes. You know who you are jerks!!!
 

Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
Your underestimating your power, and overstating pedalec bike outputs.

If this community is going to have a discussion about eBikes, it needs to be with accurate numbers.

The average cyclist can put out around 200w for 15 to 20 minutes. An athlete can do 400w to 500w over that same period.

The average cyclist can have an instantaneous peak power (like when you strain to get over that large root on a steep climb) of around 800w, whilst an athlete can be well over 1000watts.

In that context, in situations when you may spin the wheel on a difficult steep climb (peak power) your really only supplementing your power by 25%, which may bring the average rider close to the output of an athlete. And over a long climb, your output would also be supplemented to be roughly equivalent to an athlete.

It would allow flow-rider to ride as far or as fast as a Julien Absalon. Or alternatively, you can run wider tyres for extra grip, and not notice the extra drag.

I don't see these bikes that supplement power up to 250w, and only up to 30kmh having a noticeable impact on the trails.

On the 500w output, I only remember reading about one bike that does that and that's the Specialized Levo. And they are a bit weird when mention that 500w is available sometimes as torque. No idea what they mean by that but it sounds a lot like marketing speil

All I've said above is only relevant for bikes without a throttle (pedalec). Bikes with a throttle are likely to cause damage to trails.
Nice clarity Ivan. I'm inclined to agree with you that the impact of a 'legal' pedelec on trails is not likely to be significant. I can regularly 'break traction' on a normal bike on short steep climbs over loose surface, but that's because I probably chose the wrong gear, or have too much air in the rear tyre, or that I'm just a shit rider - probably a 20/20/60 split and that's being generous with respect to my prowess...

I'm sensing from others here is that there isn't so much concern with 250W pedelecs on trails, it's more curiosity as to why you would ride them off-road in the first place if the level of assistance is so modest. You'd still need a reasonable level of fitness and be fairly able-bodied to ride one in the bush to begin with, and the extra power assistance is somewhat negated by the additional weight of the bike itself. It's not surprising that the uber-fit and skilled riders here on RB (no sarcasm intended) question the utility of these legal pedelecs in an off-road context.
 

latheboy

Likes Dirt
I build Dyno's for a living and earlier this week I was testing a brand new bike dyno.
I put my BMX on to test the low power end of the control system.
I smashed out 1.1Kw (1.5HP)

Up at summernats this year we run an E-bike, a Russian rip off of the stealth.
Claimed 7Kw at the wheel but only made about 4Kw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaFKeEguyHI

I rode it out the back on the grass and it would power slid around corners.
Yes it was fun to ride but there is no way in hell I'd buy one or ride it on single track.

There are guys at Lysterfield riding the comms track the opposite direction on Stealths.
The guy selling the Russian one said there are places in NSW where you can ride them no problem, I said bullshit.
First problem with the whole E-bike thing is when the seller tells people they can ride anywhere they want.

The tech is good and I like them for it, but it will never be a MTB and should never be on the trails.
 

Dozer

Heavy machinery.
Staff member
There are guys at Lysterfield riding the comms track the opposite direction on Stealths.
The guy selling the Russian one said there are places in NSW where you can ride them no problem, I said bullshit.
First problem with the whole E-bike thing is when the seller tells people they can ride anywhere they want.
There would be no hesitation in me removing teeth from someone riding up my trails. It really pisses me off to think that an uneducated person or even an educated person would consider not researching which way a trail runs etc etc blah blah blah. Actually, after watching some of those video's, I'm amazed at how fast they actually pull up the hills and I dread to think what would happen if a collision occurred.
Easy fix? Stick to fire roads and velodromes and escorting power walkers.
 

latheboy

Likes Dirt
I assume this is your Russian friend? So much camera time given to filming his crotch! I'm assuming it is Putting, yeah?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfI9XVLRbUY
I wouldn't use the word "Friend"

1 thing I found funny was it had top of the line DNM forks and Shock in it :)
When I asked why he said Price.

If I was to drop $10K I'd want something better than that.

I haven't seen them myself at Lysty but the sales guy for stealth told me they do it a lot.
Should start carrying a pair of side cutters and cut the throttle wire if we ever come across one.
 

ianganderton

Likes Dirt
Good info Ivan. Thanks

I'm sensing from others here is that there isn't so much concern with 250W pedelecs on trails, it's more curiosity as to why you would ride them off-road in the first place if the level of assistance is so modest.
Based on Ivan's info a legal pedelec in in effect doubling the average power output of a non athletic rider

Reason folks would buy one- it feels nice, it's very flattering, makes you feel like a fitter rider than you are.

Pedelecs work by sensing the power the rider is putting into the pedals and matching it (depending on the software and program selected in the onboard computer managing the system)

In my experience it's a lot like a tail wind

In the UAE I did a lot of riding fatbikes in the desert. Amazing fun and adventure. Exploring the desert on a bicycle is amazing because you are so in touch with the environment because they are silent. Before fatbikes folks were limited to camels, 4x4 or MX bikes.

But you had to have pretty good fitness to enjoy it

When we fitted a 500W bionx system to a moonlander everyone could enjoy the experience including the silence.

On roads and cycle paths they remove some of the hurdles people have for getting on a bike. Less sweaty, less fitness required, quicker average speed for a non athlete etc etc

So it depends on your reason for cycling whether pedelecs are applicable. If it's sport and fitness then no

Low key recreation maybe, being introduced to the sport yes they are VERY popular at hire shops

Urban transport maybe
 

Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
...
Reason folks would buy one
...
If it's sport and fitness then no
...
Urban transport maybe
I think that about sums it up, and I think you're more or less agreeing with what I said - people who ride for sport and fitness aren't likely to be seen on e-bikes. Although, if a 250W pedelec gets someone off the couch and into riding and they build up fitness and then migrate to pedal power, or stay on an e-bike, that's a good thing too. I'm thinking that my daughter, who suffers from asthma, would benefit from a pedelec.

I worked with a guy a year or so ago who commuted ~30km each way daily on a selection of mountain bikes, one of which was a legal pedelec e-bike. I had a short go on it one afternoon and the amount of assistance is surprising, it makes you feel like Steve Austin when you pedal. I can definitely see the benefit of e-bikes for urban transport - the guy's comments at the time were along the lines that it helped with hills and with a higher average speed, travel time was less. One less car on the road is definitely a good thing.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
I think that about sums it up, and I think you're more or less agreeing with what I said - people who ride for sport and fitness aren't likely to be seen on e-bikes. Although, if a 250W pedelec gets someone off the couch and into riding and they build up fitness and then migrate to pedal power, or stay on an e-bike, that's a good thing too. I'm thinking that my daughter, who suffers from asthma, would benefit from a pedelec.

I worked with a guy a year or so ago who commuted ~30km each way daily on a selection of mountain bikes, one of which was a legal pedelec e-bike. I had a short go on it one afternoon and the amount of assistance is surprising, it makes you feel like Steve Austin when you pedal. I can definitely see the benefit of e-bikes for urban transport - the guy's comments at the time were along the lines that it helped with hills and with a higher average speed, travel time was less. One less car on the road is definitely a good thing.
What good is it feeling like a wrestler when riding a bike?
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
Your underestimating your power, and overstating pedalec bike outputs.

If this community is going to have a discussion about eBikes, it needs to be with accurate numbers.

The average cyclist can put out around 200w for 15 to 20 minutes. An athlete can do 400w to 500w over that same period.

The average cyclist can have an instantaneous peak power (like when you strain to get over that large root on a steep climb) of around 800w, whilst an athlete can be well over 1000watts.

In that context, in situations when you may spin the wheel on a difficult steep climb (peak power) your really only supplementing your power by 25%, which may bring the average rider close to the output of an athlete. And over a long climb, your output would also be supplemented to be roughly equivalent to an athlete.

It would allow flow-rider to ride as far or as fast as a Julien Absalon. Or alternatively, you can run wider tyres for extra grip, and not notice the extra drag.

I don't see these bikes that supplement power up to 250w, and only up to 30kmh having a noticeable impact on the trails.

On the 500w output, I only remember reading about one bike that does that and that's the Specialized Levo. And they are a bit weird when mention that 500w is available sometimes as torque. No idea what they mean by that but it sounds a lot like marketing speil

All I've said above is only relevant for bikes without a throttle (pedalec). Bikes with a throttle are likely to cause damage to trails.
I followed a pedelec 3 years ago on the road, it was a lady in a long dress with a replica old style retro bike, basket on the front and single speed. She sat cruising on just under 25ks on the straight, I passed her easy on the straight, when it came to a really steep long hill she passed me on the climb but without even a sweat up . I was on a road bike that weighted at just over 6kg and I'm not the worst climber out on the roads. She didn't look like the athlete type and holding her dress from flying over her head with one hand also.

The 2nd time I followed two guys up a climb on a MTB trail, they were two older guys probably in their mid 50s. I was able to keep up to them for most of the hill climb and I noticed considerably more wheel slip than what I had on the climb. I could see when they strained over different obstacles that the wheel broke traction more easily but only for a short instant. I might add the noise that came form the bikes was annoying also.

I think it's hard to compare human wattage to a machine as the energy bursts are somewhat different and you would also recoup more easily on an assisted bike. I think some of the bikes have a little bit more power than they state.


G'day foxpuppet

Power as per european/australian limitations - 250W continuous (with maybe up to 500W peaks) and must be pedalling for power to engage (so no throttle) - works on a troque sensor which senses the pressure applied to the pedals and just 'boosts' your power. Essentially, makes you feel like you've got bionic legs! I'd offer you a spin but unfortunately it's a bit of a trek to Perth (must update my location on my profile) from where you are...

There are a lot of good mid drives coming to market (mine's a rear hub drive - unsprung weight in rear wheel issue) which put the power through the gears which when combined with human input can pretty muck climb anything...

Agreed re: power (Stealth Bikes and the like), need to be careful where these are allowed in terms of trails etc. however these also have a place as light weight, enviromentally friendly dirt bike replacements which should be given access and opportunities that all off road vehciles are provided.

Thanks for the response.
.
 
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stirk

Burner
Saw a rather large ebike doing a mono along the highway at Glenbrook today. The rider looked like he'd just been dealing drugs to the kids at the skate park, yeah we all know the type of person these high powered ebikes attract. Those too young to have a licence, have lost their licence or those who want to ride MTB trails on a moto because state forests are boring.
 
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