Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
A bit of pinko, lefty propaganda for pharmaboy and slippy...

Since 11/9, there have been 3 deaths attributed to terrorism in Australia. 5 if you include the fatal shooting of the perpetrators by law enforcement.

31 women were killed in domestic violence situations in the first 5 months of this year.

There were 2864 suicides in Australia last year. None of these were during a terrorist attack.

The road toll in NSW alone stands at 221 for the year to date (18/7) there have been 22 road deaths this month, 17. 5 days...

4 people did from bumping into another person in 2014

Lightening, falling out of bed and off chairs all have a higher fatality rate than domestic terrorism.

Horses kill an average of 20 people a year.

It has cost Australian taxpayers over $30 billion for the war on terror since 11/9.

It seems the only thing we have to fear is ignorant histrionics.


#hashtag
This is the wrong way to look at terror though, it doesn't work on a body count logic, it works on a fear logic (hence the "terror" bit).

You can have an attack in Paris that kills 150 people spread across 8 busses. 150 dead is a tiny number and it's on the other side of the world. Now consider that you live in a country where there is s large and restive Muslim population with a little bit of radicalization going on (basically, Australia) and that your three kids travel on busses for about ten hours a week commuting and stuff. The relation of people dying by lightening as compared to terror attacks is redundant, the risk of your kids being ripped apart in an explosion has just increased and you are not going to give a shot about the odds.

Terror is about psychology and vulnerability, not statistics.
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
This is the wrong way to look at terror though, it doesn't work on a body count logic, it works on a fear logic (hence the "terror" bit).


Terror is about psychology and vulnerability, not statistics.
Yeah, maybe not clear, but that's the point I was trying to make, hence the last sentence.

There is so much random shit that can kill you, that we seem to take in our stride, yet a couple of isolated, minor (in the terms of international attacks) blown way out of proportion to other more common and frequent dangers, and we're ready to Lynch anyone with a chin beard and burn mosques to the ground.

Seems to me successive governments and "informed social commentators" are doing a much better job of instilling irrational fear in the populace and marginalising ethnic and religious minorities, priming them for radicalisation, than Alan Keeda and Eyesillybuggers could ever hope to achieve here.

Maybe if we all just chilled the hell out and treated other people with a little more respect and trust, we wont have the nut bag base here, needed to carry through on the logistics needed for a A class attack.


#hashtag
 

flamin'trek

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yeah, maybe not clear, but that's the point I was trying to make, hence the last sentence.

There is so much random shit that can kill you, that we seem to take in our stride, yet a couple of isolated, minor (in the terms of international attacks) blown way out of proportion to other more common and frequent dangers, and we're ready to Lynch anyone with a chin beard and burn mosques to the ground.

Seems to me successive governments and "informed social commentators" are doing a much better job of instilling irrational fear in the populace and marginalising ethnic and religious minorities, priming them for radicalisation, than Alan Keeda and Eyesillybuggers could ever hope to achieve here.

Maybe if we all just chilled the hell out and treated other people with a little more respect and trust, we wont have the nut bag base here, needed to carry through on the logistics needed for a A class attack.


#hashtag
That shows in 'murica. They spend so much effort carrying on about terrorists attacking them and yet manage to kill many times more by their own gun-totin' hands.

The media need to be more selective in calling these events terrrorist attacks too. They seem to have changed the language on this latest Nice attack to being a massacre, recognising it was not orchestrated by a terror organisation (if you can call them that) but by a lone disaffected individual. Orlando was similar, started out being a terror attack then as more facts came out it turned out to be more like a jilted lover that had too easy access to weapons.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
You know what's equally stupid? Lefties who label the anti-muslims as "racist".

Last time I checked muslims were people of all races who shared a common religious and ideological belief system. People who are anti-muslim may be xenophobic, ignorant rednecks (or they may be intelligent, well-informed free-thinkers) but they aren't racist. The whole idea of a logical debate gets shut down by hipster lefties with hysterics and labels like "racist" when they don't even apply..
Yeah, I had that conversation in another thread and I think it was MarkL that cited the Racial Discrimination Act that covers discriminating against a nationality, religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. So now people seem to be able to label some one racist if they think all Chinese are blah blah blah when China is a nation not a race, as an example. So I agree with what you're saying, definitions are starting to morph to the point the word loses its meaning.


Rather than fly off the handle and portray anyone with an opinion, or even a question, as some brand of extreme ignorance, why not attempt to discuss these issues? The truth nearly always lies somewhere in the middle, and every time you put labels on people you polarize the discussion and it breaks down to stupid vs stupid.
I now see your point. We need to be well informed before forming an opinion?

I guess my point is that neither side of this debate has a monopoly on ignorance. I don't think we should be aligning with "sides" at all but trying to find the reasonable middle ground. But then I'm a fickle mush head fence sitter who voted NXT because I can't make a decision either way.
Agreed.

I also hope that you're happy now that you voted for chaos!!??


Thank god Australia has a clean slate when it come to a long bloody history of racial tension and colonialism huh?
So, beware the Salafi trying to convert our first Australians?


Yeah, maybe not clear, but that's the point I was trying to make, hence the last sentence.

There is so much random shit that can kill you, that we seem to take in our stride, yet a couple of isolated, minor (in the terms of international attacks) blown way out of proportion to other more common and frequent dangers, and we're ready to Lynch anyone with a chin beard and burn mosques to the ground.

Seems to me successive governments and "informed social commentators" are doing a much better job of instilling irrational fear in the populace and marginalising ethnic and religious minorities, priming them for radicalisation, than Alan Keeda and Eyesillybuggers could ever hope to achieve here.

Maybe if we all just chilled the hell out and treated other people with a little more respect and trust, we wont have the nut bag base here, needed to carry through on the logistics needed for a A class attack.


#hashtag
Yeah, I get what you're saying and I see how it gels with what I'm saying. However, comparing road death, etc. doesn't sit right with me for some reason and I'm yet to work out why. Maybe because of the intent of an attack, the potential for it to disrupt life, the fact that it comes with an ultimatum of further attacks (hence the terror bit), etc. Not really sure yet but will contemplate and make something up if needed!
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
Yeah, I get what you're saying and I see how it gels with what I'm saying. However, comparing road death, etc. doesn't sit right with me for some reason and I'm yet to work out why. Maybe because of the intent of an attack, the potential for it to disrupt life, the fact that it comes with an ultimatum of further attacks (hence the terror bit), etc. Not really sure yet but will contemplate and make something up if needed!
If it sits better, take the domestic violence homicides, intent is there, the motivation is basically the same, capitulation through a constant state of fear.

I was about fear of a perceived threat vs a tangible, much more likely risk, and how uninformed "opinions" like Sonia 'make mine a double' Kruger's are part of the problem as apposed to offering anything constructive to the discussion.

As for the term racism, I think it has been part of the lexicon for so long, it's being used in place of my old standard, bigot, which I sometimes use as a synonym for completely fucking retarded, as the reclaim mob and their ilk use Muslim as a synonym for terrorist of middle eastern appearance.

#hashtag
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
So how do we maintain national security and social cohesion when anyone with a half-baked semi-factual opinion has an audience, the media broadcasts said opinions because it gets clicks/traffic, and hence reinforces a divisive view of the community?
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
So how do we maintain national security and social cohesion when anyone with a half-baked semi-factual opinion has an audience, the media broadcasts said opinions because it gets clicks/traffic, and hence reinforces a divisive view of the community?
+1 I avoid programmed television to not have to hear this shit, then jump on farcebook to stalk a mates wife who likes to post half nude selfies, and WTF, Sonia 'loves to have a beer with Duncan' Kruger is all over it. FYI, I'm joining a doomsday cult, got to be less depressing.

Convenient though, been saying for years how I should get all my sociopolitical analysis from a drunk, has been, semi-professional ballroom dancer with crazy eyes and delusions of competence.

#hashtag
 
Last edited:

ajay

^Once punched Jeff Kennett. Don't pick an e-fight
So how do we maintain national security and social cohesion when anyone with a half-baked semi-factual opinion has an audience, the media broadcasts said opinions because it gets clicks/traffic, and hence reinforces a divisive view of the community?
Im not sure national security operations will be affected by tabloid, click bait, shock and awe reporting/commenting etc. Does social cohesion even exist? Or is it just a utopian ideal tossed around? The community has been divided on just about every single issue brought forward since the dawn of time...
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
Im not sure national security operations will be affected by tabloid, click bait, shock and awe reporting/commenting etc...
Current operations, no. But policy, affecting future operations, very possibly with the current political environment, where pandering to the lowest common denominator to boost the polls and hold on to your parliamentary privileges, seems to be the norm.


#hashtag
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
So how do we maintain national security and social cohesion when anyone with a half-baked semi-factual opinion has an audience, the media broadcasts said opinions because it gets clicks/traffic, and hence reinforces a divisive view of the community?
Maybe we need another GFC, the last one, everyone seemed to preoccupied with not losing their TV, to give me h of a toss about what was coming out of it.

#hashtag
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Current operations, no. But policy, affecting future operations, very possibly with the current political environment, where pandering to the lowest common denominator to boost the polls and hold on to your parliamentary privileges, seems to be the norm.


#hashtag
I got to experience this first hand after a few weeks in the US during the tail end of the Primaries and then flying into the UK in time for the EU referendum and subsequent clusterfuck

Well here's hoping the Australian government don't go all Brexit on us and make some absolutely moronic decisions in the hope of appeasing a loud minority who have no real understanding that what they want is impossible to deliver (i.e an end to immigration and everyone to somehow accept their place in an imaginary pecking order) and is likely to make things far worse in the meantime.

This all harks back to the 'fairy godmother' approach to social division and unease that Ms Kruger and Ms Hanson seem to believe in. That with one wave of a magic wand we wil be safe from terrorism because tens of thousands of fee and tax-paying overseas students, family members of existing Australian Citizens and skilled labour are blocked at the door. Oh and that the 400,000 muslims living here in Australia will happily accept this alongside the banning of their food, their clothes and being forced to live in fear of verbal and physical abuse whenever they leave the house

Aye, good onya Sonia :rolleyes:

The most worrying thing about Nice and why it needs to have more focus from the media on just how much of a game-changer it is, is that the bloke had no history of extremism. Had only one previous conviction for road rage and managed to kill 85 people using resources that amounted to a driving licence and a credit card.

There is no way we can police that kind of thing. All the security surveillance in the world can't peek inside one mans head. Sure, we can restrict firearms. Monitor the purchase of chemicals that may be used for explosives and tap the phonelines of known terror cells but one man, a hire truck and a chip on his shoulder? We're buggered.

If we want to stay safe from that sort of (thankfully rare) extremist attack then we've really only got the choice of two courses of action. One is taking the approach of stopping all immigration and then registering every single Muslim in the country and subjecting them to round the clock surveillance in case they feel a bit pissed off about it. This probably won't go down well as from what I've seen of the Middle East, they aren't ones to go quietly in the night. In that likely case we'll just have to round them all up and place them in massive camps (like we do with Asylum Seekers)

I'm pretty sure we can do that without it turning into a massive insurgency and Australia becoming an international pariah. Hell even if it does become Yugoslavia II I'm sure Bazza and Dazza and the rest of the lads down the footy club would be able to make just as good a militia as Hamed and his mates who just got back from Syria.

Economically no doubt we'll have no problem in replacing all those cab drivers, retailers, doctors, lawyers and engineers that we've had to throw in the camps. and hey, there'll be jobs ahoy for all these new camp guard positions. Thats a golden career path right there. I mean there's just no way you'll end up in front of a human rights court 50 years from now.


The other option is for people to not be such a dick about things and actually think about the implications of what they are suggesting. You want to stop a kid from contacting ISIS over the net to be told to carry out a machete attack on circular quay? Maybe don't make him feel so alienated by ramming it down his throat in the media and on public transport that he's not welcome here. Might be an idea to stop hurling abuse at his sister too for wearing a veil. It's by no means a guaranteed success but it's probably better than the first option and it won't impact so much on my ability to get a kebab late at night.
 
Last edited:

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
A bit of pinko, lefty propaganda for pharmaboy and slippy...

Since 11/9, there have been 3 deaths attributed to terrorism in Australia. 5 if you include the fatal shooting of the perpetrators by law enforcement.

31 women were killed in domestic violence situations in the first 5 months of this year.

There were 2864 suicides in Australia last year. None of these were during a terrorist attack.

The road toll in NSW alone stands at 221 for the year to date (18/7) there have been 22 road deaths this month, 17. 5 days...

4 people did from bumping into another person in 2014

Lightening, falling out of bed and off chairs all have a higher fatality rate than domestic terrorism.

Horses kill an average of 20 people a year.

It has cost Australian taxpayers over $30 billion for the war on terror since 11/9.

It seems the only thing we have to fear is ignorant histrionics.


#hashtag
Be careful with that axe Eugene. You don't know where it's been...

I heard someone describe people as being 'professionally outraged' the other day. I thought that was spot on in this day and age. Soap boxes are so hot right now.
And cheap. You can often find a good book deal buying in 3s.

So how do we maintain national security and social cohesion when anyone with a half-baked semi-factual opinion has an audience, the media broadcasts said opinions because it gets clicks/traffic, and hence reinforces a divisive view of the community?
- informed policy/decision making (rather than agenda/opinion backed processes)
- More academic study. It is usually unbiased and the more there is the more we will know.
- Education of the masses.
- Leaders not afraid to stand up for what is right. We have had our election campaigns (pretty much the only time many Australians pay any attention) dominated by fear mongeing marginalisation for the last ~15 years. That is a long time.
- Support community building programs, bringing people together. Maybe in the nude. It's difficult to be nude and angry.
- And repair our humanitarian reputation...end mandatory detention, off shore processing, and allow asylum seekers human rights. That doesn't mean an open door policy. There is plenty of money floating around in this area, set up an efficient processing system, resource it properly, and churn through the applicants. Some people will stay, some will go home. But the system shouldn't be governed by fear and intimidation (build fear in the electorate, intimidate others from coming here).

Im not sure national security operations will be affected by tabloid, click bait, shock and awe reporting/commenting etc. Does social cohesion even exist? Or is it just a utopian ideal tossed around? The community has been divided on just about every single issue brought forward since the dawn of time...
They will...at the polls. People voting is informed from somewhere, and unfortunately some people choose tabloid and social "media" as their source. Look how popular the daily telegraph is.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Im not sure national security operations will be affected by tabloid, click bait, shock and awe reporting/commenting etc. Does social cohesion even exist? Or is it just a utopian ideal tossed around? The community has been divided on just about every single issue brought forward since the dawn of time...
Current operations, no. But policy, affecting future operations, very possibly with the current political environment, where pandering to the lowest common denominator to boost the polls and hold on to your parliamentary privileges, seems to be the norm.


#hashtag
Operations refer to a pretty slim element of the overall effort but in regards to strategy social cohesion is very much front and centre in countering violent extremism. All right here - https://www.ag.gov.au/NationalSecurity/Counteringviolentextremism/Pages/default.aspx

In terms of social cohesion as a utopian ideal, I wouldn't take it as an absolute. Sure, community is divided and not everyone likes each other, etc. etc. But it's really referring to whole sectors of society against other sectors and the rise of civil unrest due to deep divisions based on identity, blablacademicblah.

Maybe we need another GFC, the last one, everyone seemed to preoccupied with not losing their TV, to give me h of a toss about what was coming out of it.
Niall Ferguson make a pretty decent argument that tough economic times result in increased populism and nationalism. Given the GFC then Trump, Hanson, Duterte, Brexit, Marie le Pen, etc. might be a pretty decent example of that.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
I got to experience this first hand after a few weeks in the US during the tail end of the Primaries and then flying into the UK in time for the EU referendum and subsequent clusterfuck

Well here's hoping the Australian government don't go all Brexit on us and make some absolutely moronic decisions in the hope of appeasing a loud minority who have no real understanding that what they want is impossible to deliver (i.e an end to immigration and everyone to somehow accept their place in an imaginary pecking order) and is likely to make things far worse in the meantime.

This all harks back to the 'fairy godmother' approach to social division and unease that Ms Kruger and Ms Hanson seem to believe in. That with one wave of a magic wand we wil be safe from terrorism because tens of thousands of fee and tax-paying overseas students, family members of existing Australian Citizens and skilled labour are blocked at the door. Oh and that the 400,000 muslims living here in Australia will happily accept this alongside the banning of their food, their clothes and being forced to live in fear of verbal and physical abuse whenever they leave the house

Aye, good onya Sonia :rolleyes:

The most worrying thing about Nice and why it needs to have more focus from the media on just how much of a game-changer it is, is that the bloke had no history of extremism. Had only one previous conviction for road rage and managed to kill 85 people using resources that amounted to a driving licence and a credit card.

There is no way we can police that kind of thing. All the security surveillance in the world can't peek inside one mans head. Sure, we can restrict firearms. Monitor the purchase of chemicals that may be used for explosives and tap the phonelines of known terror cells but one man, a hire truck and a chip on his shoulder? We're buggered.

If we want to stay safe from that sort of (thankfully rare) extremist attack then we've really only got the choice of two courses of action. One is taking the approach of stopping all immigration and then registering every single Muslim in the country and subjecting them to round the clock surveillance in case they feel a bit pissed off about it. This probably won't go down well as from what I've seen of the Middle East, they aren't ones to go quietly in the night. In that likely case we'll just have to round them all up and place them in massive camps (like we do with Asylum Seekers)

I'm pretty sure we can do that without it turning into a massive insurgency and Australia becoming an international pariah. Hell even if it does become Yugoslavia II I'm sure Bazza and Dazza and the rest of the lads down the footy club would be able to make just as good a militia as Hamed and his mates who just got back from Syria.

Economically no doubt we'll have no problem in replacing all those cab drivers, retailers, doctors, lawyers and engineers that we've had to throw in the camps. and hey, there'll be jobs ahoy for all these new camp guard positions. Thats a golden career path right there. I mean there's just no way you'll end up in front of a human rights court 50 years from now.


The other option is for people to not be such a dick about things and actually think about the implications of what they are suggesting. You want to stop a kid from contacting ISIS over the net to be told to carry out a machete attack on circular quay? Maybe don't make him feel so alienated by ramming it down his throat in the media and on public transport that he's not welcome here. Might be an idea to stop hurling abuse at his sister too for wearing a veil. It's by no means a guaranteed success but it's probably better than the first option and it won't impact so much on my ability to get a kebab late at night.
Can we start all this up by breaking in the glass front of their (the outsiders) businesses? I've always thought that would be a sweet way to send a message. A good way to overcome that isolation you speak of could be to have all these people (the outsiders) wear an identifying badge on their clothes. That way we will all know what they are thinking.



Looks for satire font...
 

stirk

Burner
The battle between the Shia and Sunni goes back a long way. Reminds me of this cartoon although IS have killed far more of their own religion than any other so the cross is misrepresented.

Very-Much-the-Same.jpg
 

link1896

Mr Greenfield
The West's dogmatic approach to the war on drugs suggests we'll follow suit on the war on terror for at least the next few generations sadly.

Takes a gun to stop a terrorist, takes compassion, acceptance and education to stop terrorism.

No money to be made by the military industrial complex on the latter approach.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
The West's dogmatic approach to the war on drugs suggests we'll follow suit on the war on terror for at least the next few generations sadly.

Takes a gun to stop a terrorist, takes compassion, acceptance and education to stop terrorism.

No money to be made by the military industrial complex on the latter approach.
We don't want another dark alliance...best not dig too deep.
 

link1896

Mr Greenfield
We don't want another dark alliance...best not dig too deep.


The chief prosecutor of the international criminal court doesn't know yet if her mandate will allow her to examine Blair.

The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/iraq-war-inquiry-chilcot-tony-blair-prosecute

"More than a decade ago, the former ICC prosecutor explained that he had a mandate to examine conduct during the Iraq war “but not whether the decision to engage in armed conflict was legal”. Luis Moreno-Ocampo added: “I do not have the mandate to address the arguments on the legality of the use of force or the crime of aggression.” Since then, the crime of aggression has been defined in the ICC’s governing statute. However, this provision has not yet been brought into effect and will not be applied retrospectively. So there is no prospect of anyone facing charges of aggression arising from the Iraq war."

So Blair probably gets a pass on "aggression"

But

"The ICC also has jurisdiction over genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed by UK nationals after June 2002. The current prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, announced in 2014 that she was reopening a “preliminary examination” into allegations that British officials were responsible for “war crimes involving systematic detainee abuse in Iraq from 2003 until 2008”.


So in a Al Capone-esk style, maybe he'll at least be asked to front up to the ICC to answer questions regarding torture.


I hope Andrew Wilkie uses his parliamentary privilege to let rip on Howard regarding Iraq.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Blair might be stoked for Brexit...

I hope he gets nailed. I hope he gets nailed real well. Then they do johnny and George w.
 
Top