Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

MARKL

Eats Squid
Yeah, I had that conversation in another thread and I think it was MarkL that cited the Racial Discrimination Act that covers discriminating against a nationality, religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. So now people seem to be able to label some one racist if they think all Chinese are blah blah blah when China is a nation not a race, as an example. So I agree with what you're saying, definitions are starting to morph to the point the word loses its meaning.
:yo:you remembered, my day is complete...even if we still appear to disagree. I know you don't like the definition but the argument that 'all Chinese are blah blah blah...' please explain, if it isn't racism what is it? For me the definitions is great because it stops all the bullshit semantics of 'I wasn't being racist 'cause China is not a race...ha ha' which is the argument Pauline appears to be running at the moment...

The other option is for people to not be such a dick about things and actually think about the implications of what they are suggesting. You want to stop a kid from contacting ISIS over the net to be told to carry out a machete attack on circular quay? Maybe don't make him feel so alienated by ramming it down his throat in the media and on public transport that he's not welcome here. Might be an idea to stop hurling abuse at his sister too for wearing a veil. It's by no means a guaranteed success but it's probably better than the first option and it won't impact so much on my ability to get a kebab late at night.
Absolutely agreed...

- informed policy/decision making (rather than agenda/opinion backed processes)
- More academic study. It is usually unbiased and the more there is the more we will know.
- Education of the masses.
- Leaders not afraid to stand up for what is right. We have had our election campaigns (pretty much the only time many Australians pay any attention) dominated by fear mongeing marginalisation for the last ~15 years. That is a long time.
- Support community building programs, bringing people together. Maybe in the nude. It's difficult to be nude and angry.
- And repair our humanitarian reputation...end mandatory detention, off shore processing, and allow asylum seekers human rights. That doesn't mean an open door policy. There is plenty of money floating around in this area, set up an efficient processing system, resource it properly, and churn through the applicants. Some people will stay, some will go home. But the system shouldn't be governed by fear and intimidation (build fear in the electorate, intimidate others from coming here).
And PP is making sense. Between, tolerance, education and Mohamed getting a decent blow job there would be a lot less to be angry about...
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
An objection to an ideology or belief system rather than a "type of person"?
'All Muslims are terrorists' or any similar statement is referring to people and is inherently '<<......>>ist', the Racial Discrimination Act is absolutely clear that the term is racist. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, just different to what you thought.
 

slippy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
'All Muslims are terrorists' or any similar statement is referring to people and is inherently '<<......>>ist', the Racial Discrimination Act is absolutely clear that the term is racist. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, just different to what you thought.
I do get you.

But if I say I don't agree with the fundamentalist Muslim belief that women shouldn't have the same entitlements as men, or with the fundamentalist Christians that the universe was created in 7 days I am not objecting to, or generalising about, them as people, just not agreeing with their belief.

I guess saying Catholic priests are all paedophiles is "racist" seems reasonable to you. It may fit the legal definition but makes a mockery of the English language.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
And PP is making sense. Between, tolerance, education and Mohamed getting a decent blow job there would be a lot less to be angry about...
Even a bland blow job is good.

'All Muslims are terrorists' or any similar statement is referring to people and is inherently '<<......>>ist', the Racial Discrimination Act is absolutely clear that the term is racist. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, just different to what you thought.
The only publicised efforts to change the act that can recall in recent times were some Liberals trying to soften it up off the back of Andrew Bolt's prosecution.

Nick doesn't have any chaos policies. The Hinches and Hansons on the other hand...
He is a nutter. His track record speaks much clearer on the matter than his policies do.

I do get you.

But if I say I don't agree with the fundamentalist Muslim belief that women shouldn't have the same entitlements as men, or with the fundamentalist Christians that the universe was created in 7 days I am not objecting to, or generalising about, them as people, just not agreeing with their belief.

I guess saying Catholic priests are all paedophiles is "racist" seems reasonable to you. It may fit the legal definition but makes a mockery of the English language.
...and that is something new to Australia? Mockery is our strongest suit.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
'All Muslims are terrorists' or any similar statement is referring to people and is inherently '<<......>>ist', the Racial Discrimination Act is absolutely clear that the term is racist. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, just different to what you thought.
Bloody hell, the beauracrats in Canberra now get to define the English language?

All is lost when you allow legislation to change language - it also makes communication across jurisdictions difficult if not impossible, so I'll stick with what the Oxford says. Mark, you'll have to stop using "generalisations" and "bigotry" too as they probably don't have a legislative definition.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
'All Muslims are terrorists' or any similar statement is referring to people and is inherently '<<......>>ist', the Racial Discrimination Act is absolutely clear that the term is racist. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, just different to what you thought.
It's not the act it's the use of the word Race. Maybe it should just be called the anti-discrimination act or something a little more relevant. The China example is a good one, how can I be racist when I'm not referring to race? The use of the word just doesn't make sense, that's my only gripe. I have no prob with discrimination based on nationality, religion, ethnicity, sex, etc being illegal, it's just the way we use our language to refer to it that has me miffed.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
So, apart from the obvious aims of creating fear, what are the aims of ISIS for the globe?

Would they consider Donald Trumps rant and Sonia's to be a victory? Would they even find it more of a victory for that to be representative of the Anglo proportion of those 2 countries to have a general mistrust/dislike of Muslems?

If yes, then it begs the question as to whether they see the soft pluralist approach as a weakness of the west, enabling them?

If their supposed agenda is the west out of the Middle East, it seems escalating outside of the Middle East is more likely to cause the opposite?

maybe it's just a need for general anarchy - no clear established goals, just a general level of lunacy
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
That shows in 'murica. They spend so much effort carrying on about terrorists attacking them and yet manage to kill many times more by their own gun-totin' hands.

The media need to be more selective in calling these events terrrorist attacks too. They seem to have changed the language on this latest Nice attack to being a massacre, recognising it was not orchestrated by a terror organisation (if you can call them that) but by a lone disaffected individual. Orlando was similar, started out being a terror attack then as more facts came out it turned out to be more like a jilted lover that had too easy access to weapons.
Gotta be careful about drawing the same conclusions. All I remembered last week was apparently the Orlando guy was gay etc etc - then I looked up the latest, and the FBI say they can find no evidence at all that he was gay, quite the contrary, so suddenly the motivation disappears.

With Nice, there is an ongoing investigation into some support for weapons and the truck.

But if the aims of ISIS are to use anyone as a lone wolf to make attacks on civilians, and the person who does the attacks claims same during the attack, why the need to rename it something else, especially on flimsy evidence - eg nightclub shooting?

It would seem coordinated attacks are beyond them ATM, not sure though that we should be in denial about the one man attacks though - they sure seem to be effective .

(Maybe there is truth to what you say, but that Orlando gay story seems to have no legs on what up to date stuff I read )
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
So, apart from the obvious aims of creating fear, what are the aims of ISIS for the globe?

Would they consider Donald Trumps rant and Sonia's to be a victory? Would they even find it more of a victory for that to be representative of the Anglo proportion of those 2 countries to have a general mistrust/dislike of Muslems?

If yes, then it begs the question as to whether they see the soft pluralist approach as a weakness of the west, enabling them?

If their supposed agenda is the west out of the Middle East, it seems escalating outside of the Middle East is more likely to cause the opposite?

maybe it's just a need for general anarchy - no clear established goals, just a general level of lunacy
I think you have nailed it.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
So, apart from the obvious aims of creating fear, what are the aims of ISIS for the globe?
You're assuming that they have global aims and that fear is an aim in itself. I'd suggest not. Maybe their religious views are that they have to remove all infidels, but I doubt it very much. I'd say the goals of Baghdadi are to create himself a caliphate and to be it's leader. They'd like to spread the borders of that caliphate as far as possible but I'd say that they are not delusional enough to think that's achievable.

Fear is a means, not an end. AQ looked to attack the far enemy - The West who support apostate rulers in the Mid East such as the King of Jordan, Mubarak, the Saudis, etc. etc. - and once everyone saw that the West was vulnerable and that the people in the West were terrified and forced their govts to abandon the Mid East, the Arabs and others would have no fear in attacking the near enemy, which again, were the non-Islamic leaders and then AQ could come in and take territory by replacing the democratic govts and royal families with an Islamic state.

ISIS was seen to have a different strategy, one of ignoring the far enemy and attacking the near enemy to take territory by force rather than creating a uprising to overthrow the state for them. That's basically what they had achieved in Syria and Iraq. However, then attacks started occurring in the West and Dabiq, etc, called for attacks. So, to say "we" know what their strategy is and by implication, what their desired ends are, would carry too much credibility. As it assumes "they" know and that there even is a "they" outside of a few secretive leaders.


Would they consider Donald Trumps rant and Sonia's to be a victory? Would they even find it more of a victory for that to be representative of the Anglo proportion of those 2 countries to have a general mistrust/dislike of Muslems?

If yes, then it begs the question as to whether they see the soft pluralist approach as a weakness of the west, enabling them?
Actually, it doesn't beg the question as there is no logical fallacy or petito principii present. but grammar wanks aside, no, I think the way you've posed it is arse about.

Most people who work to combat Islamic extremism seem to expect that the Sonia Krugars, Trumps and Hansons are a tactical victory for their cause, but we really don't know. The reason why we think it is a victory is that marginalising Islamic communities is more likely to antagonise them and make ISIS propaganda more seductive and "buyable". If Muslims in Australia, US, etc. are comfortable, happy and safe they have little reason to buy into extremism if they are not already pre-disposed to that mindset. However, if they are vilified for nothing other than being Muslim they will be unsafe and look for some kind of collective where they can belong and which will defend them. The precedent for this is the Sunni-Shiite divide in IRaq. Maliki was victimising the Sunnis who had originally pushed AQI, the precursor to ISIS out of Iraq. When given the choice of severe marginalisation and Shiite death squads or Sunni extremism the choice was easy and ISIS was able to come storming back into Iraq. That's why victimising the Muslims as a whole here will only screw ourselves over and reduce security.

They may see the pluralist - or what I think you mean, multicultural society - here a vulnerability. But that would be wrong, it's just a potential opportunity. Our vulnerability is populism, political opportunists and shallow minded folk with little real knowledge of matters such as Pauline Hanson and Sonia Krugar. As I mentioned, one of the problems with democracy is some people have influence far greater than what their intellect should afford them and terrorism provokes a response from those people by magnifying the propaganda of the act. Modern media in general sells with fear and sensation, which is exactly what bombing buses and executing people does.

If their supposed agenda is the west out of the Middle East, it seems escalating outside of the Middle East is more likely to cause the opposite?

maybe it's just a need for general anarchy - no clear established goals, just a general level of lunacy
No, lunacy does not win large tracts of land and run govts, which is exactly what ISIS has achieved. Don't underestimate your opponent. They have shown a great deal of intelligence in optimising a mix of guerilla tactics, conventional warfare, networked warfare, propaganda, civil administration, international relations, etc. etc. Lunatics cannot achieve such things.

You suggest their agenda is something akin to a freedom fighter in that they want the West out of the Mid East (not suggesting you're applying any positive value judgement or anything). I'd suggest that's a wrong way to view it. I think it's your stock standard battle for power. I lean towards al Baghdadi and his main crew are acting the same as any guerrilla force. They have a vision of how they want life to be in their region and they are fighting for it. Their enemy is not the West, it's the govts in the Mid East and anyone who supports them. I suspect that if the West said "Hey, this is and internal issue for the Mid East, we are not going to interfere unless you mess with our interests", ISIS would take their place where they could take it and open up relations with the West. I think they likely have their ideologies, and like most, would allow transgression when it suited their interests, but are leveraging that ideology to support their capability to take power. Same as democratic parties do in the West, they have their ideologies but we all know they'll make deals and do what they have to when it comes election time. Ideology is a basis of belief but also a tool of power.
 

slippy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I have no prob with discrimination based on nationality, religion, ethnicity, sex, etc being illegal
When it comes to nationality, ethnicity and sex, no argument from me, these things we cannot choose for ourselves. But when it comes to religion (a personal choice) it's a big maybe. What if the religion you're discriminating against is one that preaches intolerance, hatred and killing in the name of deity? Do we have to tolerate intolerance because it hides behind a veil of religion?

This sort of "religious" intolerance is not confined to any one faith. It tends to be a fundamentalist attitude within many faiths that are convinced theirs is the only right way and everyone else is therefore wrong and deserves to perish. Do we have to accept this sort of crap in our oh so progressive society?

Pinko lefto social inclusion finally met its trump card when it was confronted by the challenge of whether it had to tolerate intolerance. And here we are.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
When it comes to nationality, ethnicity and sex, no argument from me, these things we cannot choose for ourselves. But when it comes to religion (a personal choice) it's a big maybe. What if the religion you're discriminating against is one that preaches intolerance, hatred and killing in the name of deity? Do we have to tolerate intolerance because it hides behind a veil of religion?
Well preaching hatred, killing, etc. is illegal as far as I'm aware so no, we don't have to accept that.

This sort of "religious" intolerance is not confined to any one faith. It tends to be a fundamentalist attitude within many faiths that are convinced theirs is the only right way and everyone else is therefore wrong and deserves to perish. Do we have to accept this sort of crap in our oh so progressive society?

Pinko lefto social inclusion finally met its trump card when it was confronted by the challenge of whether it had to tolerate intolerance. And here we are.
Well if people want to have those beliefs they can, it doesn't hurt anyone. However, if they act on intolerance it's usually going to manifest in a form of discrimination, which is illegal. Religious tolerance means you can have whatever religion you want. But that doesn't mean you have the right to discriminate against anyone else due to your religious beliefs. So I'm not sure what you're prob is, to be honest.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
come in and take territory by replacing the democratic govts and royal families with an Islamic state.
Would this be very different from the Iran of old?

Would it be unfair to see the Middle East as undergoing a transition not too dissimilar to Euroupe between Napoleonic Empire and WW1/2?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Would this be very different from the Iran of old?
Bit of a long bow. Assad is not a product of the west and neither was Maliki the way the Shah was seen to be. Second, the Ayatollahs came to power by way of revolution, ISIS is an insurgency. Lastly, Iran has a democratically elected government (alongside the religious leaders), ISIS is a theocratic dictatorship.

Would it be unfair to see the Middle East as undergoing a transition not too dissimilar to Euroupe between Napoleonic Empire and WW1/2?
No idea, I should know much more about that period in Europe than I do, to be honest.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Bit of a long bow. Assad is not a product of the west and neither was Maliki the way the Shah was seen to be. Second, the Ayatollahs came to power by way of revolution, ISIS is an insurgency. Lastly, Iran has a democratically elected government (alongside the religious leaders), ISIS is a theocratic dictatorship.
I'm not thinking identical, more the concept of enlightened (in this case religious) leaders having authority. A revolution is certainly different to an insurgency, but they do also have some similarities. Fidel Castro's revolution/invasion appears to model a mix.



No idea, I should know much more about that period in Europe than I do, to be honest.
The quick version is smaller states merging and larger states breaking up leading into the modern Europe (particularly the unification of Germany). Of course this was part of a long running shuffling of the deck chairs (Rome, Charlemagne, Holy Roman Empire, the hoards, The Moops...). Anyway It was more a consideration that (despite the significant length of traceable history and civilisation in the Middle East) after a few hundred years of western interference in the Middle East, the current formation of nations is reasonably new and therefore still in flux.
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
I do get you.

But if I say I don't agree with the fundamentalist Muslim belief that women shouldn't have the same entitlements as men, or with the fundamentalist Christians that the universe was created in 7 days I am not objecting to, or generalising about, them as people, just not agreeing with their belief.
Absolutely agreed, I don't agree with their belief system either or anyone else's version of skydaddy for that matter


I guess saying Catholic priests are all paedophiles is "racist" seems reasonable to you. It may fit the legal definition but makes a mockery of the English language.
Given that there seem to be more pedophile Catholic priests than terrorists and there are a lot more Muslims than catholic priests I would argue that you were far more likely to be right, if nothing else:drum:

I would argue that 'bigoted' is a more correct term for that particular discrimination though...and I agree it is the more correct term for describing discrimination against anyone on the basis of religion, however that doesn't preclude discrimination on the basis of religion from being racist, it just depends on the motivation. White anglo saxon Australia sees itself culturally as being 'christian' so there is no 'racial' overtone to that term, when local dickhead white boy abuses a Sikh and calls him a Muslim because all he sees is dark skin and a turban it is racially motivated and is therefore racist.

Bloody hell, the beauracrats in Canberra now get to define the English language?

All is lost when you allow legislation to change language - it also makes communication across jurisdictions difficult if not impossible, so I'll stick with what the Oxford says. Mark, you'll have to stop using "generalisations" and "bigotry" too as they probably don't have a legislative definition.
Agreed, let's go with Oxford...

Race (Noun)
1 - Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics: people of all races, colours, and creeds.

1.1 - [MASS NOUN] The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.

1.2 - A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:
'we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then'
'They sought to weld the country's diverse ethnicities into a Brazilian race defined in historical and cultural terms.'
'We Scots might be handsome but, as a race, we're not renowned for our height.'
'We are trying to find out why the British as a race find it amazingly funny to take their clothes off.'

1.3 - A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features: 'some male firefighters still regarded women as a race apart'


It's not the act it's the use of the word Race. Maybe it should just be called the anti-discrimination act or something a little more relevant. The China example is a good one, how can I be racist when I'm not referring to race? The use of the word just doesn't make sense, that's my only gripe. I have no prob with discrimination based on nationality, religion, ethnicity, sex, etc being illegal, it's just the way we use our language to refer to it that has me miffed.
See 1.2 above, I think the use of 'Scots', 'British', and 'Brazillian' is similar to your use of 'Chinese'?
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
There are numerous definitions, as below. I've always known it to be referring to physical traits/phenotype as determined by genealogy. Clearly that's just the way I understood it, which is different to how others understand it.


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/race
race2
[reys]
noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.
3.
Anthropology.

(no longer in technical use) any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics.
an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
a socially constructed category of identification based on physical characteristics, ancestry, historical affiliation, or shared culture:
Her parents wanted her to marry within her race.
a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.


4.
a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage:
the Slavic race.
5.
any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.:
the Dutch race.
6.
the human race or family; humankind:
Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
7.
Zoology. a variety; subspecies.




http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
Definition of race

1
: a breeding stock of animals

2
a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

3
a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

4
obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition

5
: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
There are numerous definitions, as below. I've always known it to be referring to physical traits/phenotype as determined by genealogy. Clearly that's just the way I understood it, which is different to how others understand it.
My point is that it is an inexact term at best and whichever part of 'a group of persons related by common descent or heredity or traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro or an arbitrary classification of modern humans or a socially constructed category of identification based on physical characteristics, ancestry, historical affiliation, or shared culture or a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage or any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc or a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock or a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics' it may mean something different but equally valid to somebody else.

Despite our disagreement over a couple of words Johnny I want to thank you for the depth of understanding that you bring to this thread, it is awesome to be able to get this kind of understanding and insight fee of the various filters our political leaders and media bring to these issues.
 
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