What did you do TO / WITH / FOR your bike today!

madstace

Likes Dirt
When you say "Market" you mean "everyone who doesn't even own a Gearbox bike" right?
Seriously, what's the beef with gripshifters? I think you guys might just be complaining for complaints sake at this point, it's a simple, effective, robust and reliable system that fits the application perfectly for delivering an uncomplicated method of applying torque in both directions.
Hmm ok, I'll bite (again).

On the market point, a quick one line definition would be "potential buyers of product X". To this, I am a potential customer of the system, not just a part, as most people jumping in wouldn't be just upgrading a box or shifter, so most people like me would be someone "who doesn't even own a Gearbox bike".

As for what's wrong with gripshifters? Well, I'd assume nothing, but for me it comes down to personal preference. I've had this argument with other people before where a simple want of choice ends up being interpreted as "you must just hate gearbox bikes". To be honest, this shits me a bit. The Zerode is a dream bike, and I love the idea of it, but Pinion still have work to do to make the gearbox more desirable. When they do, and by some miracle I end up with the free cash for one, I will have one!
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Hmm ok, I'll bite (again).

On the market point, a quick one line definition would be "potential buyers of product X". To this, I am a potential customer of the system, not just a part, as most people jumping in wouldn't be just upgrading a box or shifter, so most people like me would be someone "who doesn't even own a Gearbox bike".

As for what's wrong with gripshifters? Well, I'd assume nothing, but for me it comes down to personal preference. I've had this argument with other people before where a simple want of choice ends up being interpreted as "you must just hate gearbox bikes". To be honest, this shits me a bit. The Zerode is a dream bike, and I love the idea of it, but Pinion still have work to do to make the gearbox more desirable. When they do, and by some miracle I end up with the free cash for one, I will have one!
I'm not interpreting a beef with gearbox bikes, I was asking what problems you had with gripshifters.
And (forgive me if I'm wrong on this) I believe you still answered that in saying that there's nothing wrong with the grip shifter; there's also nothing wrong reportedly with the grip shifters currently in use. But because of your personal preference,they are less desirable for some reason? Certainly not any assumed functional flaw with it, soooo aesthetics? Weight? Price? Mouth Feel?

As a potential customer to the system, are you saying that a Trigger Shifter is your biggest holdout on desirability?
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
I don't doubt grip-shifters function alright for what they are, and that some people would think they're great - but they're not for me. In use - I strongly dislike that one of the primary points of contact/control is also something that requires twisting at times I generally don't want to be moving my wrist around or changing grip on the bar. Looking at that shifter, it looks like it'd take either a very significant twist around to change more than one or two speeds, or would require several smaller twists to jump multiple gears at once (ie: riding tracks with sudden pinch climbs) - which to my mind largely negates one of the benefits of gearbox bikes which (as I understand it) is the option/ability to jump multiple gears during shifting without having to ramp up/down through all of them. Happy that it works for you (and others), but personally I wouldn't buy a bike (or drivetrain system) with a grip-shifter as it just feels like an inconvenience and a distraction while riding to me. From an engineering standpoint it seems surprising they can't manufacture a trigger-shifter option for it, it should be fairly simple mechanically and would really help take some of the stigma away from the change to gearbox driveline for many. Again, stoked you're happy with it, but I reckon it would be a significant deterrent for many...
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
I don't doubt grip-shifters function alright for what they are, and that some people would think they're great - but they're not for me. In use - I strongly dislike that one of the primary points of contact/control is also something that requires twisting at times I generally don't want to be moving my wrist around or changing grip on the bar. Looking at that shifter, it looks like it'd take either a very significant twist around to change more than one or two speeds, or would require several smaller twists to jump multiple gears at once (ie: riding tracks with sudden pinch climbs) - which to my mind largely negates one of the benefits of gearbox bikes which (as I understand it) is the option/ability to jump multiple gears during shifting without having to ramp up/down through all of them. Happy that it works for you (and others), but personally I wouldn't buy a bike (or drivetrain system) with a grip-shifter as it just feels like an inconvenience and a distraction while riding to me. From an engineering standpoint it seems surprising they can't manufacture a trigger-shifter option for it, it should be fairly simple mechanically and would really help take some of the stigma away from the change to gearbox driveline for many. Again, stoked you're happy with it, but I reckon it would be a significant deterrent for many...
You don't grip the handlebar there unless you're deathgripping. Your primary control point is from pinky to middle finger, preferably non-white knuckled. The entire handle moves on a moto-throttle and it fails to be an issue in application there. In this application we're talking a small section of the handle that isn't even a primary control point.


Trigger shifters are typically indexed on the shifter, and have a large opposite tension spring, so you only ever really load it in one direction and then release it in the other. The gearbox has the indexing in it in this case, not the shifter, and it requires two directional tension to gear change.

To create a trigger that has adequate force in the spring pull to engage the gear as it's released, you're going to end up with a bulky shifter that needs to be setup so the discrete ratchet points match that of gear box index itself and has a large, strong spring that is capable of engaging the gears in the direction it pulls (and only release on a successful gear change so you don't have a problem with the shifter index losing sync with the gearbox index).

The best solution at the moment for your trigger shifters on the Pinion comes form Cinq, which put a ratchet mechanism on the shifter cover on the box, and then has two separate paddles that shift up or down depending on which one you throw.

Shift to easy gear on left paddle, shift to harder gear on right.

As for the shifting, it takes about 330° to change from heaviest to largest gear, you can safely dump half your gear range on a quick single pull (165°), which I might add is 600% on the 12speed and 643% on 18spd versions of the box, without having to pedal the gear through.


Engineering wise, Occam wins out on this one. If anything a hydraulic shifter will be the next best bet as it doesn't require discrete intervals to be housed within the shifter. Any cable based trigger shifter is going to require some magic level of ratcheting in both directions or some kind of pulley with tiny indexes that converts a 70-95° lever throw into what is 330° of expected movement...whilst keeping a small form factor and light shifting.
 

madstace

Likes Dirt
But because of your personal preference,they are less desirable for some reason? Certainly not any assumed functional flaw with it, soooo aesthetics? Weight? Price? Mouth Feel?

As a potential customer to the system, are you saying that a Trigger Shifter is your biggest holdout on desirability?
You nailed it in that sentence, personal preference. Typically when one has a preference for something, anything that is the opposite of that is not desirable. beeb also appears to have a similar dislike for gripshift, so at least I'm not alone. And while the criteria you listed above are important (I only lick the best bikes), my only real issue is with it's function, particularly with how bar grip would be compromised in certain situations.

As for what is holding me back (again, apart from cash), the two big ones are based on ride reports that I've read are the shifter and the pickup (aka POE). I tend to be pretty mechanically sympathetic, so I doubt I'd see the shifting while pedalling issue to be a big problem, but then it could possibly improved all the same. However while no POE junkie, by all reports it's pretty noticeable, even with a high POE hub. And I feel we've covered the shifter, but I will say the new gripshift does look like a significant improvement on the old one.
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
or you could mod up something like this to work with the Pinion if you really want to stick it to the grip shift man.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598276649/xshifter-worlds-first-universal-wireless-smart-shi
Wont work, needs to be able to pull in both directions.

TLDR, trigger shifters too hard basket, gonna be huge and a bloody nightmare to set up.
Pretty much.
If the people smart enough to create something like this:

can't figure it out...it's probably not as easy as you think it is to do.

@madstace so you do hate gearboxe bikes!!! I knew it!! :p
 

cokeonspecialtwodollars

Fartes of Portingale
Wont work, needs to be able to pull in both directions.
But if you buy the 2x setup then you can have two units connected to a single shifter, as I mentioned it may need small modifications to work but would be feasible. I came across this kickstarter when I was considering making an electronic shifter for the Pinion myself, if I can still find time for this project then I can buy a gear box bike "for testing purposes".
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
But if you buy the 2x setup then you can have two units connected to a single shifter, as I mentioned it may need small modifications to work but would be feasible. I came across this kickstarter when I was considering making an electronic shifter for the Pinion myself, if I can still find time for this project then I can buy a gear box bike "for testing purposes".
You guys must love trigger shifters a lot! I don't have the time or the money to go creating a third best solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
That entire shifting module removes itself from the bike, if Pinion ever do an electric shifter, I imagine it'll just plug straight on top of it and be fairly self contained there.
 

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
As a potential customer to the system, are you saying that a Trigger Shifter is your biggest holdout on desirability?
I can afford a Nicolai Ion GPI but I got something else, so this isn't hypothetical. I respect Zaf's reasons but these are the things holding me back.

1. The weight penalty is too high. 500g ok, 2kg not ok. Sure the removal of unsprung weight is great but on a guy who weighs 120kg+ it's not such a big deal. Dragging around an extra few kgs that I can't diet off and having to pay a premium will annoy me a lot.
2. The transmission losses are too high. I've heard all sorts of numbers but lets assume ~10%. FTP/kg isn't everything in mtb but it still counts for something.
3. Having to ratchet in order to shift into a lower gear. I might be able to ride around this, but some long term testers haven't, so who knows.
4. For some people, twist shift is ok, but it feels distinctly worse than mechanical XTR trigger shifts to me. Di2 just expands that gap.

On the positives side, I don't tend to break derailleurs and I rotate and lube my chains a lot so my drivetrain costs are pretty low. So the benefits of a gearbox don't really stack up.

If pinion or someone else could address the weight and losses issue, I would give gearboxes a good hard look. Otherwise I will stick to 10speed XTR/XT for as long as I can.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
You don't grip the handlebar there unless you're deathgripping. Your primary control point is from pinky to middle finger, preferably non-white knuckled.
Serious question. Where do your thumbs go then? My problem is the opposite to white-knuckling, I'm pretty comfortable with a relaxed grip on the bars and my hands moving around a little, hence on the only grip-shift I have ridden I tended to frequently twist it by accident with the webbing between my thumb an index finger knuckles (no aquatic spec hands here either, just normal)... It did have a pretty light and indistinct action and the shifters might be a lot better now, but my experience with that early type was horrible and not something I'd like to experience again.

As for the shifting, it takes about 330° to change from heaviest to largest gear, you can safely dump half your gear range on a quick single pull (165°), which I might add is 600% on the 12speed and 643% on 18spd versions of the box, without having to pedal the gear through.
That's what I was getting at. The ability to pull that many gears at once is great, I'm all for that - just not that method of selection. It would be a massive twist of the grips as 165° is about all you're going to get in one twist in reality.

...The best solution at the moment for your trigger shifters on the Pinion comes form Cinq, which put a ratchet mechanism on the shifter cover on the box, and then has two separate paddles that shift up or down depending on which one you throw.
That Cinq setup but with both levers on the one side would be fine to my tastes, and a lot more relevant to mountain bikes than the picture shown given the prevalence of dropper post remotes under the LH bar.

FYI, I'm not debating gearbox bikes having a place in the market (I quite like the concept, but will be interested to see the next few years evolution of them regarding efficiency and shifting), and not even saying grip-shifters don't have their place, just that I wouldn't buy a gearbox bike if the only shifting solution was a grip-shift because I don't like how they feel/operate. It's not that they are wrong or don't work, just I don't want to use them so they won't get my consumer dollars... Happy you've found what works for you, but just voicing a counterpoint. :)

PS: I appreciate the thoroughness and detail of your responses, while I don't necessarily agree I still get to learn more about bike gearboxes and shifters. Gotta love a good forum!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zaf
Z

Zaf

Guest
1. The weight penalty is too high. 500g ok, 2kg not ok. Sure the removal of unsprung weight is great but on a guy who weighs 120kg+ it's not such a big deal. Dragging around an extra few kgs that I can't diet off and having to pay a premium will annoy me a lot.
2. The transmission losses are too high. I've heard all sorts of numbers but lets assume ~10%. FTP/kg isn't everything in mtb but it still counts for something.
3. Having to ratchet in order to shift into a lower gear. I might be able to ride around this, but some long term testers haven't, so who knows.
4. For some people, twist shift is ok, but it feels distinctly worse than mechanical XTR trigger shifts to me. Di2 just expands that gap.
1. Weight Weenie!

2. Rotational mass is worse than power loss of the gearbox.

Where mb is the bike weight, and mw is the wheel weight, you can see that 100g extra weight on the wheel takes double the energy input to accellerate compared to the same mass increase added to the bike. So yeah, you might lose a little power on the gearbox, but that loss isn't as bad as the lower required energy input to move the bike. Probably why everyone with them says "you don't feel the weight until you lift it into a car".
That's even before you get onto "how much power do you actually need on uneven ground", MTB'ers in general use a less peaky power input because if we apply too much torque on the pedals we break traction on loose terrain. If that's ever happened to you, you're already breaching your maximum usable wattage anyway, unlocking more does nothing useful for you.

3. You don't need to ratchet, just stop mashing your pedals, and only to get into an easier gear. Also, the two major website testers were unable to ride around this, seemingly everyone else has managed to do so.

4. There's no accounting for taste, some people prefer SRAM shifters to Shimano. :D
 

crank1979

Likes Bikes and Dirt
When you say "Market" you mean "everyone who doesn't even own a Gearbox bike" right?
Seriously, what's the beef with gripshifters? I think you guys might just be complaining for complaints sake at this point, it's a simple, effective, robust and reliable system that fits the application perfectly for delivering an uncomplicated method of applying torque in both directions.
This is correct. I was worried about the gripshift before I got my bike but it's not an issue, is easy to use and hasn't accidentally shifted at any time so far.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zaf

crank1979

Likes Bikes and Dirt
1. The weight penalty is too high. 500g ok, 2kg not ok. Sure the removal of unsprung weight is great but on a guy who weighs 120kg+ it's not such a big deal. Dragging around an extra few kgs that I can't diet off and having to pay a premium will annoy me a lot.
2. The transmission losses are too high. I've heard all sorts of numbers but lets assume ~10%. FTP/kg isn't everything in mtb but it still counts for something.
3. Having to ratchet in order to shift into a lower gear. I might be able to ride around this, but some long term testers haven't, so who knows.
4. For some people, twist shift is ok, but it feels distinctly worse than mechanical XTR trigger shifts to me. Di2 just expands that gap.
As someone who has bikes with Di2 (road and mtb), standard cable derailleur gear, a Rohloff hub bike and a Pinion equipped Nicolai I think I can answer some of these questions.

1. The weight penalty is noticeable towards the end of a longer ride. Changing tyres to something with less rolling resistance could make enough of a difference to offset this somewhat. On the plus side it does make you a stronger rider.

2. I can only go by feel here. The Rohloff definitely has the greatest internal resistance. Between my singlespeed, derailleur euqipped mtbs and the Pinion I can't feel any difference in efficiency. The Pinion gains some over a derailleur set up if the chainline is straight.

3. It's juts like soft pedalling when you change gears with a derailleur but a bit more pronounced. You are the clutch, so letting a bit of load off the pedals lets you shift to an easier gear. You don't have to soft pedal to change to an easier gear. With the Rohloff you have to release the pedalling load for changes in both directions.

4. I don't have any issues going between all three systems. I still know how to use a front derailleur though. :p
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Serious question. Where do your thumbs go then? My problem is the opposite to white-knuckling, I'm pretty comfortable with a relaxed grip on the bars and my hands moving around a little, hence on the only grip-shift I have ridden I tended to frequently twist it by accident with the webbing between my thumb an index finger knuckles (no aquatic spec hands here either, just normal)... It did have a pretty light and indistinct action and the shifters might be a lot better now, but my experience with that early type was horrible and not something I'd like to experience again.
Around the handlebar where the shifter is.

Beeb said:
That's what I was getting at. The ability to pull that many gears at once is great, I'm all for that - just not that method of selection. It would be a massive twist of the grips as 165° is about all you're going to get in one twist in reality.
Yeah but you have 100% more gear range than Eagle with the same amount of gear intervals. You get a larger shift per gear step, and be honest, how often do you find yourself on a gradient reversal that requires massive drops of gears? It's more of a problem for if you're already on a climb and then the gradient gets steeper.

Beeb said:
That Cinq setup but with both levers on the one side would be fine to my tastes, and a lot more relevant to mountain bikes than the picture shown given the prevalence of dropper post remotes under the LH bar.
The business end of your crack pipe is hot to the touch!

Beeb said:
FYI, I'm not debating gearbox bikes having a place in the market (I quite like the concept, but will be interested to see the next few years evolution of them regarding efficiency and shifting), and not even saying grip-shifters don't have their place, just that I wouldn't buy a gearbox bike if the only shifting solution was a grip-shift because I don't like how they feel/operate. It's not that they are wrong or don't work, just I don't want to use them so they won't get my consumer dollars... Happy you've found what works for you, but just voicing a counterpoint. :)

PS: I appreciate the thoroughness and detail of your responses, while I don't necessarily agree I still get to learn more about bike gearboxes and shifters. Gotta love a good forum!
You can always go with an Effigear if the Pinion shifting methods aren't to your liking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top