Little Things You Hate

Oddjob

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
leitch said:
Sorry but at this point you're just policing body standards based on your own prejudices, and using transphobia as a shield. Trans women are women. Muscular women are women. Women with elevated testosterone for any of a number of reasons are women. Garcia is a woman. Semenya is a woman. Weatherly is a woman.

Stop misgendering people and trying to justify it under some facade of "fairness". Not only is it cruel, it's been debunked a thousand times.
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But is Garcia a female? Ie does Garcia have a Y chromosome? If she does then I can see why other females would have a problem. At the genetic level there's some things that surgery and hormone therapy can't erase.

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leitch

leitch

Feelin' a bit rrranty
Oddjob

Oddjob

Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
leitch said:
https://theconversation.com/ten-eth...-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448

Combat sports also have weight classes as a proxy for "capacity to fuck you up" which is not addressed here obviously.
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I don't know anything about Garcia or Semenya but there are a whole range of disorders where people can be born with XXY chromosomes, they are commonly called "super females" with well known symptoms including elevated hormone levels, muscle mass, and infertility. Then there are straight sex reassignment cases and probably all sorts in between.

I personally think professional sport is bullshit. But if your going to have women playing contact sports, maybe try not to fuck them up too badly by introducing competitors who have distinct genetic advantages.

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DMan

DMan

shawly the least hangeriest guy on rotorburn
Mattyp said:
Considered turning around and driving the Van in...wouldn't have fixed the problem though.
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I understand your pain. Same thing for me this morning but I was at a roadworks luckily only doing 40km/hr. I still nearly drove off the road into the ditch. But he's still in the car.... somewhere.
 
Flow-Rider

Flow-Rider

Burner
Transgender is more complex than most people can imagine, there's a lady actor in a James Bond movie that was really neither man or woman and had 2 extra X's in their chromosomes that made them more female than man.

"Klinefelter syndrome is a condition related to the X and Y chromosomes (the sex chromosomes). People typically have two sex chromosomes in each cell: females have two X chromosomes (XX), and males have one X and one Y chromosome (XY).

Most often, Klinefelter syndrome results from the presence of one extra copy of the X chromosome in each cell (XXY).Barry’s case was a bit rarer, as he had two extra X chromosomes in each cell (XXXY).¹ This made his feminine appearance even more pronounced."

https://www.universalexports.net/tula-transsexual-bond-girl/


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ozzybmx

ozzybmx

taking a shit with my boobs out
I try to stay out of these discussions and I know there are very strict rules in place for men competing as women, funnily enough, there are no rules for transgender women who compete with the men.

The bit that would give me the shits if I was at that level or in that situation, is training and getting to the top of your game, next minute a competitor who was formerly a man, steps in, passes all criteria and snatches, what may have been, your world title.

Rachael Mckinnon winning the UCI Masters World Champs is another case where a transgender has taken top spot.

I do feel for her with the backlash and abuse she got afterwards... and probably still does.

www.bicycling.com

Transgender Track World Champion Defends Her Human Right—To Race

What masters track sprinter Rachel McKinnon (and her competitors) want you to know.
www.bicycling.com www.bicycling.com
 
leitch

leitch

Feelin' a bit rrranty
ozzybmx said:
I try to stay out of these discussions and I know there are very strict rules in place for men competing as women, funnily enough, there are no rules for transgender women who compete with the men.
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Just to stay on top of the terminology and keep this conversation in the right place, trans women = women, trans men = men, not the other way around (i.e. refer to people in context of their gender identity not their biological sex at birth).
ozzybmx said:
The bit that would give me the shits if I was at that level or in that situation, is training and getting to the top of your game, next minute a competitor who was formerly a man, steps in, passes all criteria and snatches, what may have been, your world title.
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With reference to sex segregation (remember not all sports are segregated), it stems from an understanding that male bodies are on average larger and stronger than female bodies, which is largely considered in this context to be driven by increased testosterone production. For example, Australia's Sex Discrimination Act has an exemption for sports which allows for discrimination on the grounds of sex or gender identity only in ‘any competitive sporting activity in which the strength, stamina or physique of competitors is relevant’.

This is not an especially nuanced approach, and a higher testosterone level does not automatically equate to improved athletic performance:

British Journal of Sports Medicine

In the absence of a statistically significant correlation between androgens and performance, the evidence that either total testosterone or free testosterone predicts performance in women is not supported... As the CAS panel noted, a competitive advantage in the range of 1%–3% suggested by the IAAF advisors is a relatively marginal one ‘…given the many other relevant variables that also legitimately affect athletic performance’. One of the difficulties in quantifying the performance advantage that any individual athlete (male or female) derives from high endogenous testosterone levels is that it fails to account for these other variables.
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The application of defining this as a means for classifying participants (which then applies to the instance of trans athletes) is up to the various sports governing bodies. The IOC requires an individual who wishes to compete in the female category to have a total serum testosterone level below 10 nanomoles/L for at least 12 months prior to their first competition in that category. The UCI is even stricter, with a requirement that athletes be and remain below 5 nmol/L testosterone.

The article you linked @ozzybmx also points to some indications that the hormone treatments etc undergone as part of M-F transition contribute to significant decline in performance, which is not addressed or considered in the rules/much of the discussion.

At the end of the day, the scientific basis for discrimination is open for discussion and refinement (and it should be, because it also has negative consequences - e.g. Caster Semenya).

However, athletes who enter competition know and accept the rules as a condition of entry. To then kick off and bully/harass a trans athlete who beats them, or for people to misgender and belittle trans women who are competing in compliance with rules that already require them to justify their existence by doing shit like calling them "men" and "cheats" is not a critique of the management of the sport - it's pure transphobia.
 
Plankosaurus

Plankosaurus

Spongeplank Dalepantski
I'm with you on the bullying etc. Not cool at any point.

But I also reckon it's not for us menfolk to weigh in on how the rules should work. We don't have a horse in the race, there's no way we're going to be pitted against someone with a potential advantage due to gender change. (Or in my case, I'll just get beaten by any demographic because I'm super uncompetitive )

I definitely wouldn't say to a lady competitor that they should or shouldn't feel hard done by if they're beaten in those circumstances. I couldn't possibly do more than guess at how that'd feel

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Dales Cannon

Dales Cannon

lightbrain about 4pm
Staff member
leitch said:
Just to stay on top of the terminology and keep this conversation in the right place, trans women = women, trans men = men, not the other way around (i.e. refer to people in context of their gender identity not their biological sex at birth).

With reference to sex segregation (remember not all sports are segregated), it stems from an understanding that male bodies are on average larger and stronger than female bodies, which is largely considered in this context to be driven by increased testosterone production. For example, Australia's Sex Discrimination Act has an exemption for sports which allows for discrimination on the grounds of sex or gender identity only in ‘any competitive sporting activity in which the strength, stamina or physique of competitors is relevant’.

This is not an especially nuanced approach, and a higher testosterone level does not automatically equate to improved athletic performance:



The application of defining this as a means for classifying participants (which then applies to the instance of trans athletes) is up to the various sports governing bodies. The IOC requires an individual who wishes to compete in the female category to have a total serum testosterone level below 10 nanomoles/L for at least 12 months prior to their first competition in that category. The UCI is even stricter, with a requirement that athletes be and remain below 5 nmol/L testosterone.

The article you linked @ozzybmx also points to some indications that the hormone treatments etc undergone as part of M-F transition contribute to significant decline in performance, which is not addressed or considered in the rules/much of the discussion.

At the end of the day, the scientific basis for discrimination is open for discussion and refinement (and it should be, because it also has negative consequences - e.g. Caster Semenya).

However, athletes who enter competition know and accept the rules as a condition of entry. To then kick off and bully/harass a trans athlete who beats them, or for people to misgender and belittle trans women who are competing in compliance with rules that already require them to justify their existence by doing shit like calling them "men" and "cheats" is not a critique of the management of the sport - it's pure transphobia.
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Is that the law or your view of things?
 
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