Armstrong Charged with Doping

MARKL

Eats Squid
I meant level as in he beat them at the same game. Not saying it's cool in any way. It's totally lame. My point was he won in the situation I'd imagine most of the top guys were in. That's at face value.
Reading Tyler's book it is clear how big a difference the drugs made - back of the pack to front of the pack, sprinters cruising past climbers on long climbs etc. It was also interesting that Lance appeared to take offence at other people doping more than him, if somebody performed better than Lance, in Lance's words 'not normal'...

Whilst it is obvious now how many riders from that period doped it is also obvious that there were riders back then that didn't dope - maybe they did't win, maybe they didn't get to race in the big races, maybe they missed out on a contract, maybe they gave up because they thought the gap from them to the 'pros' was too big. Whichever way you cut it there were clean riders that were denied race wins, race starts and whole careers cause they chose not to dope.
 

Trigger02

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I can understand that. My apologies.
Just one thing. Why is Lance not in Jail for fraud, deception etc? Not being a smart arse, and sorry if it's been raised. But for such corruption of what for all accounts is actually business as well as sport, why are heavier criminal charges not laid?
Is that not why Tyler Hamilton dobbed in Lance? To get of his own supply drug charge? Everyone thinks Tyler did it for for the good of the sport hahahahaha what a laugh
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
Its interesting the posts above which try and belittle anyone who tries to understand as a fanboi of Lance - I'd put it to markL and placebo that they hate Lance so much because they were naive to the goings on of drugs in sport.

Why is that cricketers, footballers etc all cheat on our television everyday, its so common its accepted and even called gamesmanship, we apply a different test to cheating thats hidden do we?
Hate Lance? Probably not - I have no respect for the man, I think he is a liar and a cheat...hatred is a different thing.

Naive to drugs in sport? Probably - I think everyone is to some degree. I have a view that sport should be conducted in a certain way, there are rules and you should play within them, otherwise what is the point? Maybe I should value the result higher than how you played the game? At the end of the day I understand that people cheat using drugs in all sports - doesn't mean I have to like it.

Different test to cheating that is hidden? I think your close - I think it is 'premeditated' more so than 'hidden'. If you do something in the course of play in sport you tend to get penalised and the world moves on, if you do something that is 'premeditated' it tends to get a much more severe sanction - both from the sport and the community at large. Off field cheating by its nature is premeditated and tends to draw a different response than something that happens in the heat of battle.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Hate Lance? Probably not - I have no respect for the man, I think he is a liar and a cheat...hatred is a different thing.

Naive to drugs in sport? Probably - I think everyone is to some degree. I have a view that sport should be conducted in a certain way, there are rules and you should play within them, otherwise what is the point? Maybe I should value the result higher than how you played the game? At the end of the day I understand that people cheat using drugs in all sports - doesn't mean I have to like it.

Different test to cheating that is hidden? I think your close - I think it is 'premeditated' more so than 'hidden'. If you do something in the course of play in sport you tend to get penalised and the world moves on, if you do something that is 'premeditated' it tends to get a much more severe sanction - both from the sport and the community at large. Off field cheating by its nature is premeditated and tends to draw a different response than something that happens in the heat of battle.
I think we just come to accept cheating in different guises but not others - any form of cheating in Golf would be considered a heinous crime - you are expected to call a penalty on yourself that no-one can see, even if it means the loss of a Major - there arent referees everywhere, its about honor and integrity. Cycling has a lot of those unwritten rules as well, slowing down the peloton for example, LA stopping for Ullrich when he crashed - so the image is gentlemenly, but the reality is football.

Is todays banned substance or method, tomorrows legitimate performance maximising technique? look at caffeine, from career destroyer to accepted.
 

No Skid Marks

Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
Another stupid query.
Why don't they just put the onus on the teams as they are failing to police it well enough. Give the teams massive fines if their riders are caught cheating.
 

placebo

Likes Dirt
Its interesting the posts above which try and belittle anyone who tries to understand as a fanboi of Lance - I'd put it to markL and placebo that they hate Lance so much because they were naive to the goings on of drugs in sport.

Why is that cricketers, footballers etc all cheat on our television everyday, its so common its accepted and even called gamesmanship, we apply a different test to cheating thats hidden do we?
It's not any sort of naivety to reject the reluctant apologies of dopers who've spent their careers robbing clean athletes, actively fighting against those who wanted clean cycling, and slandering and suing those who told the truth. Cricketers such as Warne, and league players like Maitua have been busted for doping, so why should tour riders get a free pass? An example of gamesmanship is the mental stuff done by Steve Waugh when playing cricket for Australia, not paying some dude on a motorbike to deliver blood bags to the team hotel so you can infuse, microdosing epo, or taking testosterone so you can recover quicker, while paying an Italian doctor convicted of doping half a million euros a year for the program on how to do so.

I can understand that. My apologies.
Just one thing. Why is Lance not in Jail for fraud, deception etc? Not being a smart arse, and sorry if it's been raised. But for such corruption of what for all accounts is actually business as well as sport, why are heavier criminal charges not laid?
The grand jury investigation, much like the one which eventually led to Marion Jones being convicted and losing her five olympic medals was terminated for some reason that has never been disclosed. Some people put it down to Armstrong's political connections, others to the inability of the grand jury to get enough riders and others to testify against him.

Is that not why Tyler Hamilton dobbed in Lance? To get of his own supply drug charge? Everyone thinks Tyler did it for for the good of the sport hahahahaha what a laugh
Nine other riders who rode with Lance gave sworn testimony to USADA, and some of those gave sworn testimony to the grand jury investigation. Add that to the sworn testimony given by the Andreus and others during the insurance case, and the evidence from Walsh and other journalists spanning over a decade, and it's pretty hard to make that case against Hamilton. Really, if you're going for that self interest/profit angle you might make a similar accusation against Landis. He's up for 30% of the US federal government whistle blower case against Armstrong because of the US Postal sponsorship. It was 30 million dollars, penalty provisions can multipy the liability by three, and Landis is in line for 30 percent of that if the case were to succeed. Things I've read suggest Landis was broke and looking for any sort of help he could get, asked Armstrong for some help and was brushed instead of being given any sort of consideration. Landis lodged the whistle blower claim, and thing spiralled from there. Apparently, if Armstrong had enough compassion or foresight to get Landis a basic job somewhere with one of the companies that sponsored him, the Landis claim, and one of the most significant triggers for this whole thing would not have happened.

Armstrong is a self confessed cheat now, regardless of USADA, Hamilton, Landis, or anything that is able to be extracted from Bruyneel or Ferrari. It's not a witch-hunt, or a speculative investigation. He's a cheat. He has said he has cheated for almost twenty years, and all his tour victories were the result of cheating. He didn't say this under any sort of duress, he said it during an interview with Oprah. No agency could previously get him to admit this, not USADA, not the UCI, not the grand jury, it was his choice to confess on that show. What did Armstrong do for cycling in the bigger picture? Fuck all. Seven tours now without a winner, and a sport that sponsors can't get out of fast enough. If he'd stayed in triathlon, cycling would be in much better shape today.

Another stupid query.
Why don't they just put the onus on the teams as they are failing to police it well enough. Give the teams massive fines if their riders are caught cheating.
Teams only exist because of sponsors. If companies don't want to sponsor top level cycling, they leave and may not be replaced. Especially if the team they sponsor is busted for doping.
 

mars mtb

Likes Dirt
The biggest thing that stands out for me in all of this is how much of a nasty prick he was, and how far he went out of his way to hurt, fix up, bring down and damage people and their livelihoods. He just did not give a stuff.

He is just spewin' he got caught is all.

Just really disappointed in what he really is, and that like many in the early days I got caught up in the story.

I do subscribe to what Paul Sherwin said that the Tours he competed in were great spectacles but it is now after the fact that you feel the empty of him.

It does my head in on how he was prepared to just f*** over people, good people and not blink.
 

akashra

Eats Squid
Armstrong is "the fall guy" in that he's the guy standing on the edge of the cliff pushing all the other guys over.
 
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