Athiests: What will you say if we've got it wrong?

[McBain]

Only a person of very low moral standing would believe that.

You could talk about this stuff forever - the way that religious types through the ages have used fear and dominance to exert power and trap people in their ways of thinking. There's some quite neat psychological tricks that are in most religions to make people "believe".

Heck, I figured that out when I was a teenager, being forced to sit in church, reciting the same phrases over and over by rote (that are still burned into my memory), reacting to unspoken commands to sit/stand/kneel, you name it. The happy clappers (Hillsong, etc.) are no better from all accounts.

 

[TonyG]

You could talk about this stuff forever - the way that religious types through the ages have used fear and dominance to exert power and trap people in their ways of thinking. There's some quite neat psychological tricks that are in most religions to make people "believe".

Heck, I figured that out when I was a teenager, being forced to sit in church, reciting the same phrases over and over by rote (that are still burned into my memory), reacting to unspoken commands to sit/stand/kneel, you name it. The happy clappers (Hillsong, etc.) are no better from all accounts.

That is my biggest issue with Christianity and Islamic faith. They pedal fear and hatred. People are guilted into doing things that don’t come naturally to them by others who have gone to extremes. Eventually you have people strapping some TNT to the belt and walking into a shopping centre and detonating themselves. IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD!! Fuck me what is good about that??
Wars are fought over some stupid wall that some idiots like to kiss.

 

[Binaural]

Ruckus Lord and Binaural you have very good points. Although I'm not sure what you meant was special about 80 years.

Infinte punishment for finite sins. Hardly seems fair, does it?

 

[McBain]

Infinte punishment for finite sins. Hardly seems fair, does it?

Bring back thousands of years in purgatory, I say!

 

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

TonyG:
I wouldn’t call it low moral standing, I’d call it humility. However there is nothing I can say that will convince you that God is right. Only he can soften your heart.

The belief that the punishment for sin is death doesn’t itself lead to wars. It’s people who take that and think that they have the right to execute God’s judgment. No pun intended. You hit it right on the head that we need to be accommodating and forgiving etc. I find it interesting that you despise the Bible’s teachings so much but that is where the foundation of our modern law came from. The very idea of forgiving each other and accommodating each other is the second central theme of the Bible. The first is to love God. These are stated as the greatest of God’s commandments in Mathew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34, and that they sum up the entire law. I’m intrigued that you don’t hate God but hate his word. I was wondering what other things you despise about it?

I ask you though, if we are only now realising what adequate punishments are, what about all those people before who didn’t get what they deserved? Or got more? What do they deserve? What about people who are found guilty but are innocent or vice versa? Human judgment is not always good enough.

McBain:
We most certainly could talk for a long time and I was thinking that I/we (that is, most people) have taken up a lot of this thread with talking about it. I don’t know what Techno thinks about it but maybe I/we should start another thread to discuss these questions as there are some very good and important points that’ve been raised.

I certainly agree that churches have done some shocking things in the past in the name of God but I ask you and anyone reading this not to judge God by what humans do, rather, let God be right and every man a liar before God is accused.

I also don’t know what church you went to or what experience you had there but it sounds like the one you were at was to hung up on ceremony rather then pure gospel. Church is supposed to be a place where people can go and meet Christians, hear teaching based on the scriptures, fellowship with one another and praise God. Any church that forces you into ceremony to “be good and please God” I believe is wrong. Communion however is different as this is what Jesus told us to do, to remember him.

 

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

Infinte punishment for finite sins. Hardly seems fair, does it?

This is getting a bit beyond my understanding and starting to ask about stuff only God can know. I would be cautious to say that the punishment was infinite. For two reasons:

1 - If punishment lasted forever then Jesus would still be on the cross. I'm trying to say that there is a price that can be payed but people can't do it. Jesus could.

2 - The law (i.e. ten commandments etc.) speaks alot about what price must be payed for particular sins. An eye for an eye etc. That is not to say that the law is always a literal line that can be crossed but rather an arrow to describe justice. So there is allowance in the old testament to pay for what you do against your 'brother'.

However for sins against God the law says the punishment is death. So Jesus died once for all. But then for people who don't repent the Bible seems pretty clear that the second death is eternal.
You've got me thinking now, I can see the loop you are looking at. I can trust that God is just in his judgment, but for people who don't agree I would like to go and try to figure out an answer if you'll give me time. Not that I will necessarily find it. But, God willing, I'd like to try for you're benefit.

 

[TonyG]

TonyG:

The belief that the punishment for sin is death doesn’t itself lead to wars. It’s people who take that and think that they have the right to execute God’s judgment. this is my point. People have, do and will continue to just thatNo pun intended. You hit it right on the head that we need to be accommodating and forgiving etc. I find it interesting that you despise the Bible’s teachings so much but that is where the foundation of our modern law came from. The very idea of forgiving each other and accommodating each other is the second central theme of the Bible. The first is to love God. These are stated as the greatest of God’s commandments in Mathew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34, and that they sum up the entire law. I’m intrigued that you don’t hate God but hate his word. I was wondering what other things you despise about it?I dont believe in god, but if he did exist, from what i know of him, he wouldnt make it on to my Christmas Card list.

I ask you though, if we are only now realising what adequate punishments are, what about all those people before who didn’t get what they deserved? Or got more? What do they deserve? What about people who are found guilty but are innocent or vice versa? Human judgment is not always good enough.
This is my whole point, we are only realising that certain punishments were barbaric and counter productive. I'm sure this will continue to evolve along with evolution.
As for human judgement, I think I'd take my chances with a human judge rather than someone who condems people to an eternity burning in hell.
I certainly agree that churches have done some shocking things in the past in the name of God but I ask you and anyone reading this not to judge God by what humans do, rather, let God be right and every man a liar before God is accused.

No is my simple answer to this demand

 

[Nebuchernezzer]

Out of interest i'm going to fire off some emails to my 'born again' friends (it seems quite popular for people from non religious backgrounds to become religious these days, at least amongst people i know) and ask them why they decided they needed faith.
I'm really quite bored at work today you see .

P.S. i case we are stating our backgrounds i'm a non practicing Catholic.
Brought up in a household that believes in science, baptized at the request of a religious grandparent. I never had anyone argue strongly for or against religion during my upbringing (said grandparents let us do our own thing, happy that we were baptized at least) simply because it wasn't a part of our lives, however i did gain a strong belief in science.

 

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

That is my biggest issue with Christianity and Islamic faith. They pedal fear and hatred. People are guilted into doing things that don’t come naturally to them by others who have gone to extremes. Eventually you have people strapping some TNT to the belt and walking into a shopping centre and detonating themselves. IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD!! Fuck me what is good about that??
Wars are fought over some stupid wall that some idiots like to kiss.

Yes there are extremists. There always will be. No they aren't right, I agree. But thats no reason to reject God. So far as I have seen the only problem you have with God himself is his condemnation for you and me screwing up his world. Seriously, if I'm right then how would you expect me to tell people about it? What reason would you give to trust in him and Jesus? Fulfill the law and be a good person? But you can't completely do it! If you break part of it you've broken the whole thing.

Why did you say I wont see sense? How do you expect me to see if you don't tell me. Please tell me what you said.

 

[TonyG]

Yes there are extremists. There always will be. No they aren't right, I agree. But thats no reason to reject God. So far as I have seen the only problem you have with God himself is his condemnation for you and me screwing up his world. Seriously, if I'm right then how would you expect me to tell people about it? What reason would you give to trust in him and Jesus? Fulfill the law and be a good person? But you can't completely do it! If you break part of it you've broken the whole thing.

Why did you say I wont see sense? How do you expect me to see if you don't tell me. Please tell me what you said.

Well I've got to hand it to you mate, you seem to be fairly interested in learning, not just telling. Never lose that in life it is a rare trait. I dont think McBain meant to take that out on you, this has been a long thread that keeps repeating itself every 5 pages or so.
The thing is I simply dont believe in god in any shape or form.
And if it turned out I was wrong and all that is in the bible was correct, then I wouldnt like him anyway. He demands too much for someone who portrays themselves as perfect. I would challenge him for the throne and win, and then rule the universe (simple).

 

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

Well I've got to hand it to you mate, you seem to be fairly interested in learning, not just telling. Never lose that in life it is a rare trait. I dont think McBain meant to take that out on you, this has been a long thread that keeps repeating itself every 5 pages or so.
The thing is I simply dont believe in god in any shape or form.
And if it turned out I was wrong and all that is in the bible was correct, then I wouldnt like him anyway. He demands too much for someone who portrays themselves as perfect. I would challenge him for the throne and win, and then rule the universe (simple).

Thank you. Have you read the whole Bible? Or much of it? When you say he demands too much, is there something in particular that you are referring to? Old Testament law?

P.S. Thankyou to everybody who has listened to me and tried to discuss their views.

 

[Techno Destructo]

I don’t know what Techno thinks about it but maybe I/we should start another thread to discuss these questions as there are some very good and important points that’ve been raised.

I have no problems with this discussion continuing in this thread, however, if you want to take it to a new thread, since this one has strayed a little bit from it's opening premise, I don't blame you.

However, I don't think we're really breaking any new ground here, although, whywalkwhenucanroll, you certainly make up for some of the other "religious" people on here. At least you think about it and consider opposing points of view, and your answers, although still inherently religious based, are well said.

 

[McBain]

Why did you say I wont see sense?

I snapped, and said a few things that probably aren't productive given your irrational beliefs.

 

[TonyG]

Thank you. Have you read the whole Bible? Or much of it? When you say he demands too much, is there something in particular that you are referring to? Old Testament law?

P.S. Thankyou to everybody who has listened to me and tried to discuss their views.

I haveread a lot of the bible, but not for many years. I couldnt quote it.

When I refer to demanding too much, I am referring to the very basis of the arguement discussed in this thread. Blind faith, with a punishment of eternal damnation to those who dont comply!

 

[Hopper]

Out of curiosity, why is Jesus dying on the cross any different to the hundereds of other people who were condemned to dying on the cross by the Romans. OK he was God's son......... wait a minute, to me that doesn't really say heaps, first we are all God's children, but secondly why does God make his son die for our sins (which the hundereds mentioned earlier were doing), why doesn't God just forgive us? This seems like an intricate way of guilting us into His religion. 2000 years ago how would one guy called Jesus dying, like countless others had, effect someone in another part of the world? As for crucifiction being the worst way to die, I think God could have sent Jesus to the world around the time of Vlad III to se what a terrible death could be. In the words of Monty Python atleast when you're crucified you are outside, it could be worse you could be stabbed.

I myself believe in science and also beleive in religion as a guideline. I went to a heavily religious school, preyers and readings every morning, Chapel service once a week and Eucharists atleast once a term. All that these did was to give me the ideas and inspiration in humans, not god. Treat people as you would like to be treated is the most basic principal I live my life by.

I think yes there is a possibility that God exists, but this is because as a beleiver in science I know it is not possible to prove He doesn't exist.

 

[whywalkwhenucanroll]

It's different because Jesus was innocent. He was perfect and didn't deserve any sort of punishment. We are only God's children if we accept God's gracious gift of life. God can't just forgive us because that wouldn't be just. All the wrong done would then be unpunished and God would cease to be God. If God is to remain just then sin must be punished. That's what Jesus did, he was perfect and did nothing wrong at all. No sin. He then lay down his life to pay the price for sin only to take it up again because death cannot hold a person who doesn't deserve it.

It's interesting to note that Hell is God letting us go our own way for ever, only with out him and all that is his. Right now God is letting everyone make their decision to follow him or reject him. If you reject him and want to go your own way, he lets you. Except at the end he lets you do it for ever without all he put into life, that is day, night, stars, wind, the earth...

Techno, you said that you'd believe him if God came and did something big and on like national television right? But what if he did and then 30 years later some other guy who missed seein it wanted another one, should he keep going? Wouldn't you be able to tell him that God did do something huge and everyone saw. It was just 30 years ago and you missed it?

 

[Techno Destructo]

Techno, you said that you'd believe him if God came and did something big and on like national television right? But what if he did and then 30 years later some other guy who missed seein it wanted another one, should he keep going? Wouldn't you be able to tell him that God did do something huge and everyone saw. It was just 30 years ago and you missed it?

I'm not 100% on what you mean... What does "should he keep going?" mean?

Could you rephrase the question?

Are you saying that simply because it happened some time ago and that someone/something tells us about it, we shouldn't disbelieve it?

Let's look at a scenario. This would happen in the last 50 years, or at least, during a time of fairly good level of scientific knowledge.... A "miracle" such as someone who was stone-cold dead, declared dead by doctors and the like..., for several days, suddenly comes back to life. Now, of course, this would be the most unbelievable, mind-blowing, miraculous thing to have ever been witnessed EVER (or, at least, in modern times). And this "resurrected" person would be tested/analyzed/studied/etc... pretty exhaustively (the king of understatements, here... ).

Then science came away from it and said, "We can't explain this. It must be a miracle of god." And someone clinically dead for several days, rising from the dead? Hell, what studies would be needed to say it was a miracle?

Oh yeah. That would definitely, completely, unequivocally do it for me. I would believe in god like I believe in the real things around me.

And 30 years down the road, I would definitely pass on these events and my opinion that god is alive and well and VERY real. To anyone who asked.

But this is a very different scenario to the same scenario of jesus, as read in the bible. The difference here is:
1. There are no living witnesses
2. The only record is a written one, as opposed to something far more difficult to fake, such as film/video/etc....
3. That written record is over a couple thousand years old. Written over and over and over again by different people at different times. Possibly with different motives and mindsets. Are you familiar with the term "chinese whispers"?
4. It's coming from the same source of a heckuva lot more completely fantastic miracles, so the idea that the source has a track record for factuality is difficult to be relied on...
5. There is no possibility for scientific scrutiny, and there never was any in the first place.

So I think the comparison between a glorious miracle happening 2000 years ago, and one happening 30 years ago, witnessed by the modern world and science, isn't a realistic one.

What unbelievable miracles, that science has had the opportunity to put to the test and not been able to explain, have happened in the last 30 years?

I want god to do some DELIBERATE, toe-to-toe with the world of science, to prove that s/he exists. Not something random, or that science has explained.

The rising problem of atheism would be solved instantly, and probably forever? Accord to the bible, s/he's done tons of stuff in the past (resurrecting dead, burning-talking bushes, etc...). Why not do one more, just to reinstate herself/himself?

 

[TonyG]

Your not a happy clapper are you whywalkwhenucanroll???

 

[nizai]

As an atheist, I don't believe in jesus, elves, trolls or eskimos.

N

 

[Andy.G]

I'm not 100% on what you mean... What does "should he keep going?" mean?

I get his point, there are many here asking God to do something big to prove He exists ...

whywalkwhenucanroll is saying - He DID !!! It just happens to be 2,000 (or actually 1,974?) years ago ... should he keep doing it for those who missed it the first time - or is once enough?

Granted, it wasn't the best time for recording technologies, but maybe it had to be done at that particular time, to direct the ways of the world - before it got too far 'out of control', or too far down a particular pagan track ?? It may have been a case of ... better help them out here, show them this and - they have paper and ink, can't wait for video, they'll be farming each other for food by then.