Brakes Other than Shimano and Avid for Downhill?

[Nick53]

Hey guys,
Have pretty much had enough of my Shimano Saint (4 piston) brakes and was looking for an alternative. 99% of people riding downhill either use Shimano or Avid so I was wondering what people thought of other brands.

I've currently been looking at Hope alternatives. I've pretty much ruled out Magura brakes because although they perform very well spare parts are hard to come by. Also have pretty much ruled out Formula 'The One' brakes. They're very expensive and on the pair I've tried, I dislike how the lever springs back sluggishly. Try to convince me too consider them? A lot of people seem to like them.
Anyways here are my current options and I've added what I've found out through some research. Feel free to add.

Hope:
-Tech M4
-Tech V2
-Tech X2
So I'm finding it hard to understand Hope brakes. Apparently the Tech V2 (2 piston) is more powerful than the 4 piston M4. Where does the X2 fit in? They all have the same lever. Just the caliper differs. They are quite heavy but the lever seems to be great and they come stock with Goodridge lines.

Or...​

I could get some Avid brakes. Was looking at the Avid Elixir Cr Mag brakes. Any good for downhill? How are the new Codes?

Good thing about Avid is that you can buy individual parts. Shimano make you buy complete lever assemblies, calipers etc (main parts).

Or...​

I could spend heaps of money trying to fix my Saints...or just get new ones.


As anyone riding downhill I am after the brake which is best overall in regards to:

• Modulation
• Power
• Lever Feel
• Weight
• Reliability

Thoughts? And yes, I have searched...

Thanks

 

[muskimo]

in relation to power output with the M4 compared to the V2. what i think you will find is that the piston out put is much higher as there are only 2 pistons clamping. and the M4 you have 2large 2 small, so the clamping force can be distributed over the 4 giving larger clamping area requiring less lb/square inch to get the same effect. the added bonus of 4pot over 2 is that the main pistons (larger ones) engage just before the smaller ones giving you various amounts of stopping power.

i run a M6 (6pot front) and a M4 (4pot rear) and just like you have said, the M4 is said to be more powerful than the M6, well honestly, thats just number talk. the 6 stops so much nicer than the 4, and heat is dissipated much better with a larger pad contact area. you can not go wrong with hope components

 

[Red.]

Well i think you should go for a type of Avid brake because they are just so Good they feel good, light and parts are very easy to get. I give them a 9 out of 10 for Reliability.
Now Avid Elixir Cr Mag brakes I have not used but i have had a go of the SRAM XXs brakes and they feel great best brakes on the market i think, And XXs are the same as CR Mags i think, But also Avid Elixir Crs What i have also feel really good and i really like them since i got them bleed. Go Avid they will not let you down.

 

[Kamikazee ideki]

Personally I would go with Hopes, either the M4 or the V2. Elixirs are great when they are working, but have a habit of blowing lever bladders. What's wrong with your saint brakes? They seem like they would be the best DH brake out there...

 

[muskimo]

Well i think you should go for a type of Avid brake because they are just so Good they feel good, light and parts are very easy to get. I give them a 9 out of 10 for Reliability.
Now Avid Elixir Cr Mag brakes I have not used but i have had a go of the SRAM XXs brakes and they feel great best brakes on the market i think, And XXs are the same as CR Mags i think, But also Avid Elixir Crs What i have also feel really good and i really like them since i got them bleed. Go Avid they will not let you down.

the problems ive found with avid and hayes brakes is that they require lots and lots of maintenance and above average bleeding.

there are many other brakes out on the market that match the specs of xx and cr mags and even more that exceed these specs.

 

[scblack]

What are you finding wrong with the Saints? I am interested as I have just ordered a pair from CRC. PLease let me know.

 

[Sean]

Well i think you should go for a type of Avid brake because they are just so Good they feel good, light and parts are very easy to get. I give them a 9 out of 10 for Reliability.
Now Avid Elixir Cr Mag brakes I have not used but i have had a go of the SRAM XXs brakes and they feel great best brakes on the market i think, And XXs are the same as CR Mags i think, But also Avid Elixir Crs What i have also feel really good and i really like them since i got them bleed. Go Avid they will not let you down.

9 out of 10 reliability? Are you on crack? I run a set of Elixir Rs on my downhill rig, and they require a constant look out in the maintenance department. No doubt, they're great brakes, but you need to maintain them meticulously.

I'd advise against using any of the higher end Avid brakes (XX, XO) as these are designed for XC, but I'd have a look at the new Codes or Code Rs, not too heavy but certainly look the goods!

Can't help you on the Hope brakes though mate.

 

[v1llage1d1ot]

I just picked up a pair of tech m4s after running mono m4s for the last 3 years. The new m4s (2009 onwards) actually run 4 pistons the same size. I did not have to touch my monos EVER, they just worked. I haven't used the techs yet cause I'm waiting for my wheels to get built, but after bleeding them they feel pretty sweet. Also the braided lines they come with are not goodridge but a hope braided line.

I prefer the old shimano style lever to the new servo wave style. It just felt more solid.

Can't gonwrong with hopes though.

 

[Regan of Gong]

Well you asked...

 

[evObda2]

Id be interested to see some Brembo reviews..
I quickly found someone selling them.. not sure if you’d like the price but then they’re Brembo’s after all. And they include rotor in the price.

http://www.oppracing.com/products/4574-brembo-mountain-bike-brake-systems/

 

[stacky]

+1 for the Hope's. The hope tech levers have a great feel and the adjustments work spot on. I just replaced my Elixer CR/200mm rotors with the V2/185mm rotors on my AM bike and they're a massive improvement even with the smaller rotors.
I recieved a very nice reply from Hopetech.UK (top customer service) and apparently the V2 caliper is actually lighter than the M4, just overall weight is higher due to the rotors and braided hose that comes stock. The V2 rotors have a 20mm deep braking surface and are thicker which is how they gain braking power over the M4 but also where the weight comes in.

I also considered the Magura brakes as they now have a AU distributor which has made it easier getting spares. http://www.alinecycling.com.au/ Got great service here but ended up going for the hopes.

 

[NZSNOWDOG]

I'm running 2 sets of avid code 5's,one set on my do it all bike,the other on the dh'er.
Luv em.
I'm close to 100kg,and neither of my bikes are light,but the codes provide heaps of power(way more than enough),and good modulation.
Have had no reliability issues.
Cant compare to current alternatives(and personal preferences regarding feel etc),but for price/performance,I am very happy with these.

 

[rone]

I too would like to know what is wrong with your Saints. If they are bled properly they are foolproof.

 

[Nick53]

Ok well I'll start off with what is wrong with the Saints.

The problem is that after I don't use the brakes for like a minute they pull all the way back into the bar and don't stop the wheel at all. The pistons rebound all the way back into the caliper and I have to pump the lever for a fair while to get the pistons in a position where they work again (well until I don't use them for like a minute). Before everyone says it, no, there's not any air in the line. I've had them bled 3 times with very good mechanics with no success.

So then we thought that some of the seals in the lever were leaking and the air is getting into the line that way. So my mechanic hasn't yet found a leak but for the time being he put his new lever assembly on (older style Saints; which for the record the lever feels way better on them compared to the new ones) and it hasn't really stopped the problem. It's not as bad as it was but after a few minutes the lever slams into the bar again. The problem is worse on the front brake compared to the rear and it's pretty sketchy using it how I am currently.

I got my dad to have a look at them who owns and maintains many, many motorbikes so from his experience and motorbike background he thinks the following. Note that I may not have remembered everything he said. Anyway apparently there is like a 'honing' seal in the caliper itself. Think of it like an elastic band. As the brake fluid is pumped through the caliper the seal is stretched and as soon as the lever flow stops this seal brings the piston back into its desired spot (usually approx. 0.5mm away from the pad meeting rotor). But he thinks on my brakes the piston and seal have too good a fit and the seal brings the piston back way too far, hence my problem. We may try taking the pistons out and lightly sanding/smoothing them to see if the seal will slide on it better but not sure if that will work.

Conveniently enough Shimano don't really sell individual parts unlike pretty much every other brand so instead you'd have to buy a whole assembly. Sram do it with their derailleurs. If you snap a spring on an X9 derailleur you have to buy a whole new derailleur instead of just swapping the spring. Both of my levers are also bent so to make them feel good again I'd have to buy a lever assembly aswell. Awesome! I've already spent like $150 trying to make them good as they are decent brakes that have a lot of power (although lack a lot of modulation) so that's pretty much why I'm over them...

Congratulations if you read that

 

[drivebytrucker]

hope all the way, the main difference in the v2 and m4 is piston number, if your a lighter bloke the v2 will be fine, most of the pro's run the 2 cos its obviously lighter andthey probably brake alot less that you or i. i run the 4s cos im 120kg and they are just awesome. do get the hope vented rotor too, bit pricey but well worth it, i ran my old avid clean sweeps at first and then the hope rotors, unbelievable difference.

the x 2 is the xc version.

allthough if you can afford them the magura gustav is by far the best brake ive ever had the pleasure of using.

 

[J@se]

Sorry to hear you're having dramas with your brakes dude. I ran those badboys for 12 months trouble free.

I'm running Formula The Ones at the moment and like them, but they're hella exxy if you're buying new.

 

[scblack]

Sorry to hear you're having dramas with your brakes dude. I ran those badboys for 12 months trouble free.

I'm running Formula The Ones at the moment and like them, but they're hella exxy if you're buying new.

Formula The Ones are very pricey. I have just bought a set of front and rear brakes from CRC - Saints approx. $370 and Formula The Ones approx. $600.

I bought the Saints.

 

[Nick53]

+1 for the Hope's. The hope tech levers have a great feel and the adjustments work spot on. I just replaced my Elixer CR/200mm rotors with the V2/185mm rotors on my AM bike and they're a massive improvement even with the smaller rotors.
I recieved a very nice reply from Hopetech.UK (top customer service) and apparently the V2 caliper is actually lighter than the M4, just overall weight is higher due to the rotors and braided hose that comes stock. The V2 rotors have a 20mm deep braking surface and are thicker which is how they gain braking power over the M4 but also where the weight comes in.

I also considered the Magura brakes as they now have a AU distributor which has made it easier getting spares. http://www.alinecycling.com.au/ Got great service here but ended up going for the hopes.

Yeah I've heard another positive with Hope is there great customer service. Thanks for the information regarding weight. Just checked the Hope website and the floating rotor is 170g whereas the vented rotor is 283g so that's where the difference is. As far as I'm aware you can run the floating rotor on the V2 with no troubles. I am pretty picky with weight as I'm trying to get a lightish build out of a fairly heavy frame. I wonder if other 'floating' rotors such as the Shimano RT76 would work and be lighter? Don't think it would be that much lighter seeing as the centrelock version seems about 200g.

Had a look at the Magura brakes but it doesn't seem like they have much of a downhill orientated brake for 2011, they seem to be concentrating on XC.

in relation to power output with the M4 compared to the V2. what i think you will find is that the piston out put is much higher as there are only 2 pistons clamping. and the M4 you have 2large 2 small, so the clamping force can be distributed over the 4 giving larger clamping area requiring less lb/square inch to get the same effect. the added bonus of 4pot over 2 is that the main pistons (larger ones) engage just before the smaller ones giving you various amounts of stopping power.

i run a M6 (6pot front) and a M4 (4pot rear) and just like you have said, the M4 is said to be more powerful than the M6, well honestly, thats just number talk. the 6 stops so much nicer than the 4, and heat is dissipated much better with a larger pad contact area. you can not go wrong with hope components

I get what you're saying but all that means is that it is less effort for the m4 to achieve the same amount of braking force as the V2. Hope state that the V2 has more...

The second half of what you're saying makes sense as there is a larger braking surface and therefore more friction between the pad and the rotor but I think any front brake will be more effective compared to the rear.

there are many other brakes out on the market that match the specs of xx and cr mags and even more that exceed these specs.

Such as? I really like the Cr Mags, only thing is Avid's reliability and whether they would have enough stopping power, especially after running Saints for a while. The Cr Mags are pretty much a lightweight version of the Cr's yeah? So there performance should be identical excluding the weight?

Also the braided lines they come with are not goodridge but a hope braided line.

I prefer the old shimano style lever to the new servo wave style. It just felt more solid.

Can't gonwrong with hopes though.

Agree with the Shimano lever being better on the older versions, may be because my current ones are a bit bent though.

Also as of the Hope website the M4's which you have are 'Supplied with a choice of either hi tensile polyester reinforced or Goodridge stainless steel braided hose.' The V2's have a 'Goodridge stainless steel braided hose as fitted as standard.'

Well you asked...

I'm sure there great but US$1200 for a pair of brakes is a bit too much for me considering I can get a set of Hope's for like $360.

 

[TheBug]

Formula don't just offer 'the One' in the DH/FR arena.
Have you considered the new FR version of the Ones?
Shares the same caliper as 'the One' but with the master cyclinder of the RX. (Around $120 cheaper for F+R using CRC as a guide).

Another one to consider are the Megas, which are oro's with fatter pistons - cheaper again.

 

[Nick53]

hope all the way, the main difference in the v2 and m4 is piston number, if your a lighter bloke the v2 will be fine, most of the pro's run the 2 cos its obviously lighter andthey probably brake alot less that you or i. i run the 4s cos im 120kg and they are just awesome. do get the hope vented rotor too, bit pricey but well worth it, i ran my old avid clean sweeps at first and then the hope rotors, unbelievable difference.

the x 2 is the xc version.

allthough if you can afford them the magura gustav is by far the best brake ive ever had the pleasure of using.

Yeah I only weight maybe 65-70kg with riding gear. I guess what's confusing me is that on the Hope website they list the V2 as there downhill brake and on the M4 they say it can be used for XC Racing aswell? If the V2 is lighter with the same rotor why wouldn't the V2 be just as good as XC Racing as the M4?

I also disagree in a way with what the pro's do. They probably brake less if you're talking in seconds but when they do brake it would probably be way more intense on the tracks they ride so therefore wouldn't they want more power so they could brake later and gain time? Why would they be choosing the V2, especially on tracks such as Champery.

I wonder how much better the Vented rotor is than the Floating rotor. 246g better? I wonder how the 6 bolt Shimano floating rotor would go paired with Hope brakes in terms of performance and weight.

What makes the X2 worse than the V2 for downhill? Hope lists that they've just made the caliper lighter...

Magura don't even list that they make the Gustav anymore. Would have been interesting though.

Sorry to hear you're having dramas with your brakes dude. I ran those badboys for 12 months trouble free.

I'm running Formula The Ones at the moment and like them, but they're hella exxy if you're buying new.

Not your fault at all man. The bike was in immaculate condition when I picked it up. You can't control how I manage to screw it up and I'd happily buy another bike from you or recommend you as a great seller to deal with

Lots of people seem to rate the Formula's highly. On the one set I've tried I found how the lever sprung back to be really slow and almost sluggish. Might have just been that pair. Felt pretty good apart from that.


Here's some prices of some options mentioned. No rotors and standard hose unless mentioned:
-Formula The One: $308 per end (no rotors)
-Avid Elixir Cr Mag: $215 per end with 160mm G3 rotor or $256 with 203mm G3 rotor
-Hope Tech V2: $183 per end Goodridge braided hose included
-Hope Tech M4: $189 per end with Goodridge hose or $12 cheaper with standard hose
-Hope Tech X2: $161 per end with Goodridge hose or $12 cheaper with standard hose
-Brand new Saints: $182 per end
-Fix current Saints: who knows


TheBug I'll have a look at those options now. Thanks