Carbon - frame or wheel set?

dunndog

Eats Squid
Yo, currently stockpiling for an upcoming build from scratch. I'm a fan of Carbon frames, my last 2 have been plastic and I've had no issues. You can definitely feel the difference, across weight, stiffness and efficiency, but to what extent I can't really remember as its been a few years since I had an alu frame, which I also never had any problems with.

I also have never owned or ridden Carbon rims. I am told they are the single best thing you can upgrade on your ride, but there are those that believe they can be too stiff and harsh..

Anyways, my thought has possibly moved from Carbon frame/all wheels, to alu frame/Carbon wheels. I've never actually read anything comparing these 2 options (for aggressive all mountain use) so I'm wondering what you lot think would be the more beneficial combination in terms of durability, strength, weight, ride performance etc? Give potentially the price differences between the respective frame and rim options are similar, overall price should be similar.. Interested to hear your thoughts/experiences.
 

mint355

Likes Dirt
Yep. I was running Carbon wheels on my Canfield EPO (carbon) found it really stiff and not a whole lot of fun to ride for longer periods. Switched the Enve M60 out for a Flite wheelset built by Wheelworks in NZ. Specifically DT swiss 350 hubs to DT swiss XM481 alloy rims. The compliance is a whole lot better but they weigh a fair bit more.... The trade off is worth it in my opinion.
Having said this I once had a Kona Explosif Cro-moly Hardtail that rode beautifully with carbon wheels. Steel is real!!!
 

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
The things I found changing from alu to carbon rims (in a carbon frame, haven't tried in the alu frame, mainly 'cos I'd need to swap forks as well to make it fit!) is that being stiffer they corner better, but are a bit more prone to pinging off mid-corner bumps, however the better vibration damping helps iron out the really fine buzz that's too fine for the suspension to react to. They are fairly sensitive to tyre pressure; you need to drop pressure a little bit from what you use in equivalent aluminium rims to take some of the skittishness out, but you need enough pressure to ensure you're not going to bottom out on the rim - although carbon is very strong stuff it doesn't like concentrated impacts like edges of rocks, and that's what will break them.
 

The Reverend

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The things I found changing from alu to carbon rims (in a carbon frame, haven't tried in the alu frame, mainly 'cos I'd need to swap forks as well to make it fit!) is that being stiffer they corner better, but are a bit more prone to pinging off mid-corner bumps, however the better vibration damping helps iron out the really fine buzz that's too fine for the suspension to react to. They are fairly sensitive to tyre pressure; you need to drop pressure a little bit from what you use in equivalent aluminium rims to take some of the skittishness out, but you need enough pressure to ensure you're not going to bottom out on the rim - although carbon is very strong stuff it doesn't like concentrated impacts like edges of rocks, and that's what will break them.
I'd agree entirely with this POV. When I put carbon rims on my carbon framed bike I noticed the trail being lest busy and it just felt quiet. Upping the pressure really made the wheels ping about a fair bit so I'm balancing comfort & grip with not bottoming out the wheel on the trail.

Are they worth it? Yes, in my opinion as they made a great bike feel even better, but one can get awesome alloy rims too. It depends on your circumstances and requirements.
 

dunndog

Eats Squid
I'd agree entirely with this POV. When I put carbon rims on my carbon framed bike I noticed the trail being lest busy and it just felt quiet. Upping the pressure really made the wheels ping about a fair bit so I'm balancing comfort & grip with not bottoming out the wheel on the trail.

Are they worth it? Yes, in my opinion as they made a great bike feel even better, but one can get awesome alloy rims too. It depends on your circumstances and requirements.
Basically I'm looking at a frame that's about $1300 more for the carbon over the alloy. Which is ballpark the extra amount a carbon wheelset would be over alloy. I won't be going both yet, it's out of my budget. I'm interested to know whether an alloy frame/carbon wheelset would be advantageous over possibly the more common carbon frame/alloy wheelset combo. I know there are variables, but I've never seen a comparison with arguments for or against either.
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
I had a ride on Mittagongben's demo Rune with carbon wheels. I was really impressed with the wheels, they were noticeably stiffer than alloy. I hadn't really considered th comparison before but you are right it is a similar price difference...compared to my one carbon mountain bike experience the wheels were more impressive. Though with all things bike I probably comes down more to execution than material.
 

The Reverend

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Are you likely to hold on to the frame long enough to actually move to carbon rims? Some people flip bikes pretty quickly...
If you honestly believe you're likely to keep the frame long enough to move to carbon in the time it takes to get the $$$ then get the frame in carbon.

Personally, I'd get the alloy frame and carbon rims and enjoy the ride. And if you get a burnished finish like the Canfield Riot you'll be too busy smiling and gawping at how beautiful your bike is AND rides!
 

madstace

Likes Dirt
+1 alloy frame with carbons wheels. I've ridden a few test carbon bikes and while the ride is nice, it's very muted and doesn't feel terribly lively, and still not really any smoother in the rough. Having said that, I almost always miss my carbon wheels. The only alloys I've had that match the stiffness and quality of ride of my Light Bicycle rims are my old Mavic 521s, but they were 150 grams per rim heavier. Rotational weight is definitely the best weight to lose, and the added stiffness is a bonus.
 

discofrank

Likes Dirt
bear in mind im still a newbie

but have just done the same thing

ally trance with stock giant carbon rims ( $400 with XT rotors! i think they are )

only 3 rides in and yes i can notice the difference JUST over the stock ally giant rims
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Hey its every 6.... and a half months.
Dude, be proud of it! Don't get seen on outdated kit.

On topic, carbon both! Although I've gotta admit the EX1501's and my Flow EX wheels feel great, starting to come back around to alloy wheels, even planning on some ARC30's this Tax return for my Honzo.

That said, it's kit the whole story, there are lots of factors that make a wheel set good and/or appropriate to a bike. As mint found, ENVEs on a hardtail is a punishing ride, but on a trail bike suit perfectly.
 

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
For the benefit of this thread I undertook a little test session. Having both an aluminium and carbon example of the same series frame is quite handy, because it gives a high level of consistency to the handling characteristics.

The Equipment:

Frames:
Frame 1 is a 2011/12 Giant Anthem aluminium with Fox Float RP2 rear shock and Rock Shox Reba RL dual-air fork with quick release dropouts, aluminium seatpost and stem, carbon bar.

Frame 2 is a 2011/12 Anthem Advanced SL carbon frame, including rear swingarm & upper rockers, with Fox Float RP23 shock and Fox F100 RLC fork with 15mm through-axle, carbon/aluminium composite stem, carbon bar and seatpost.

Both frames are medium size and roll on 26" wheels

In terms of drivetrain, both run a bastardised mix of SLX & XT, both 3x10. The aluminium bike has a non-clutched derailleur, while the carbon bike has a clutched model; the clutch was switched OFF for consistency & comparison of noise transfer.

Wheels:
Wheelset 1 is an aluminium Shimano M785 XT set, quick release at both ends, fitted with Maxxis Ignitor LUST tyres, tubeless.

Wheelset 2 is an aluminium Shimano M775 XT set, quick release rear, through axle front, fitted with standard foldable Maxxis Crossmark tyres, tubed. Both XT sets have 24 spokes front & rear, the M785 is a few grams lighter, but not enough difference to impact the test. I could have got away with one set, but decided to use both to minimise fork swapping.

Wheelset 3 is a Dirty Mongrel Racing custom build, Carbonal M623 rims, Shimano M9000 XTR hubs with 32 DT Aerolite spokes per end, quick release rear, through axle front, with Maxxis Crossmark LUST tyres, tubeless.

All hubs have 10-degree ratchet profiling, so pedal pick-up is consistent across all wheels.

All tyres were run at 22psi front, 24psi rear, although the tubed tyres could probably have been run a little harder to compensate for the softer sidewalls.

The Test Course:
I used a shortened version of the Commonwealth Games course at Lysterfield; mostly gravel-topped but in places worn through to natural surface including tree roots and exposed rocks, with a wide range of corners, climbs, descents and higher-speed sections and some rock garden technical features. The course is 4.2km long, and I tried to pick the same lines as much as possible.

The Test:

A single lap was ridden in each configuration; first all-aluminium, second carbon frame/alu wheels, third all carbon, finally swapping the forks to fit the carbon wheels to the aluminium frame.

The meaty bits:
Not too surprisingly, the all-aluminium rig transmits a lot of trail chatter, and although the tight & steep geometry & small wheels produce agile handling, there is some floatiness when pointing at corners. Switching to the aluminium-shod carbon frame, it's immediately apparent the gravelly trail buzz is reduced. The lighter frame is easier to chuck around, but the slightly floaty feel in corners remains. Side note: this second lap was ridden with the through-axle version of the XT wheels. For me at least there is no significant change in handling attributable to the axle/fork configuration. More aggressive riders may notice more difference.

Lap Three & onto the full carbon package. The gravelly trail buzz is further reduced, but the bigger bumps become slightly more apparent. It's a weird paradox, you feel the size of the bumps more due to the greater stiffness of the wheels, but the vibration damping of the resin component of the composite layup takes the sting out of the initial hit. The handling is noticeably sharper; there is less delay in information getting from the handlebar & fork and through the wheel to the ground and it darts into corners, but as noted earlier in the thread, the stiffness does introduce a little bit of skittishness on mid-corner bumps, although that can be dialled out with an adjustment of tyre pressure. The other factor to the agility is the lack of weight, in this instance there's a 300g difference between the carbon wheels and the XT sets. The reduction in rotating mass cuts the inertia, so it's easier to change direction, and faster to wind up out of corners.

Finally the aluminium frame/carbon wheels. The trail buzz is about on par with the opposite alu/carbon mix - more than all-carbon, but less than all-aluminium, but the handling gains are all there. You do feel the bumps a bit more because you don't have as much carbon (well, resin really) to soak up the vibrations, but they're still softer than aluminium.

The Wrap

Clearly all-carbon is the optimal package, but that's not always possible. If it has to come down to a choice, aluminium frame on carbon wheels is a better package than carbon frame on aluminium wheels.
 

dunndog

Eats Squid
Nice work Ducky! Great stuff getting it all together to run that little test, makes perfect sense and I'd agree with everything you've said.
The one variable to all of this is, as someone else pointed out to me, carbon rims are far more susceptible to damage and need of replacement than a carbon frame, so potentially the cost would be much higher to go the carbon rims over the alu rims.
I'm declaring you wrong also because I have laid down the hard earned on carbon frame and alu rims, so this simply must be the best combination now and anything else is wrong. For my style anyway. :tongue1:
 

mitchy_

Llama calmer
Dude, be proud of it! Don't get seen on outdated kit.

On topic, carbon both! Although I've gotta admit the EX1501's and my Flow EX wheels feel great, starting to come back around to alloy wheels, even planning on some ARC30's this Tax return for my Honzo.

That said, it's kit the whole story, there are lots of factors that make a wheel set good and/or appropriate to a bike. As mint found, ENVEs on a hardtail is a punishing ride, but on a trail bike suit perfectly.
not the first person i've heard say enve wheels are too stiff and cause discomfort.

i had alloy and chinese carbon wheels on my alloy hardtail... all alloy was borderline assault, the carbon wheels took the edge off the harshness for me.
 

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
The one variable to all of this is, as someone else pointed out to me, carbon rims are far more susceptible to damage and need of replacement than a carbon frame, so potentially the cost would be much higher to go the carbon rims over the alu rims.
Yes & no. Depending on how you ride, rims regardless of what they're made of have higher probability of needing replacement. The thing with carbon, which people misinterpret as being fragile, is that there is no "plastic" phase where the material bends & stays bent. Carbon is elastic right up to its breaking point, so it'll either spring back to its original shape, or it will break. An impact sufficient to break a carbon rim WILL permanently deform an aluminium rim too.
 

cramhobart

Likes Dirt
Its a lot cheaper and easier to upgrade to a carbon wheel set then to swap to a carbon frame. Carbon frame now- wheels later.
 
Z

Zaf

Guest
Still think it's not as much a question of material but a number of factors in which the rim material plays a part. Spokes, and tensions used, as well as the design of the rim itself will change how a wheel feels. Double butted with a larger ERD on a shallow rim will have more give over rough terrain than a tall rim (and resultant smaller ERD) with plain gauges, regardless of the material. This runs the risk of becoming a "29ers are slow handling" stereotype because it's focusing on one factor.

My Light Bicycle 38mm rims are super stiff and transmit that trail chatter across them, more than my 2013 Flow EX's. The DT Swiss EX1501's that came on my Canyon are incredibly stiff as a wheel set as well, on par with the carbon Zelvy's that my Yeti ran. The material on the rim is only part of the picture, assuming that carbon will dampen everything can lead to misconceptions.

But back on topic, carbon frame, all the way if you can!! For reasons stated above.
 
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