Change 24hr Racing (Start time)? NOW WITH POLL!

[Delmar]

Ok, just putting this out there...

Basking in the afterglow of the weekend, once again another great show from CORC and Scott. After 10years of these things I don't seem to be tiring of them! I expect to be at the Scott and Mont (and others) for years yet.

Trouble is, of course, that carving out the time to be there is getting harder as I move more into the family stage (I have three kids). I'm always keen to minimise time away, both because I like 'em and to ease the load on my better half. I figure there's a heap of people in my age and stage, and also others who have time pressures surrounding getting away.

So when a team-mate (who's well out of my stage by the way) suggested on the weekend that he'd love to start the race earlier to make going home Sunday that bit easier, my ears pricked up. The more I thought about it, and mentioned it to a few blokes, the more it seemed like a good idea. Not a world changer, but helpful.

Simply: start the race at 10am. Seems to me that many/most travel down friday anyway and camp, or stay nearby. Locals could still get out of bed and out there comfortably. Remember we all seem to sort it so we can be there at 6 or 7am for the 100km races. The outcome would be 10am finish sunday. Beers with mates, more time for post mortems, chats with other teams, more time to get presentation done. The whole vibe and 'moment' seems a little ruined by the rush to get out of there.

This seems to be very applicable to the Mont and Scott, where a large lump of the riders come from 2-3 hours away. Home at 4-5 after a relaxed post race instead of 6-7. Time before kids bed, more time to get sorted for work the next day and so on. It's only two hours but it seems to me it would make a big difference to the Sunday, with very little cost at the other end- you can still head out either Friday night or Saturday morning. There might even be an advantage re the fatigue factor driving home?

Anyway, maybe it's just the few I've spoken to. Maybe it's a rubbish idea for some really obvious reasons that we've missed. As I said it's not such a big deal (not a game changer). But maybe that means it's not such a big deal to change either?

Anyway, what do you all think, keen to get some collective thoughts...

 

[Jackstack]

I've brought this up in conversations before and wholeheartedly agree. The idea of finshing before lunch and being able to take your time getting home I reckon would be very appealling to most. Plus a bit more racing before nightfall would be pretty cool as well.
Oh and nice win Delmar, looked like it was a good race:clap2:

 

[Delmar]

Shucks mate... it's only taken me ten years to get one...

 

[goryden]

Why didnt I think of that?

Great idea Delmar. Makes perfect sense, hard to really see any downside. I am sure you would get more staying for presentations this way. The time before midday Saturday is really just a bit of a waste, yes you can use that time to catch up with mates, but really you are in race prep mode, so transferring that time to post race would be better.
I'm at a stage where I can take my kids with me to weekends like this, but getting home at 7pm Sunday night with tired kids and a truck load of washing doesnt quite appeal to my wife. If I had time at the end of the race to stay for preso's, have a beer with mates and still get home well before dinner that would be the icing on the cake
Cheers

 

[hipdos]

Good idea I reckon. More daylight racing on the Sat would be great, that's when you are fresh and even though the night laps are fun, you are expending the same energy but going slower so it's a bit of a waste to get into them so early in the race. The next day is zombie time so it wouldn't hurt to wrap it up quicker. It would also force our out of town riders to come down on the Friday night so it's not such a scramble on the Sat morning..

Seems all upside to me, although might make it harder for the organisers, or maybe easier? Dunno, I guess they would have more time to wrap up on the Sunday as well.

 

[pi11wizard]

I'm thinking 24 hour racing is a bit short. Lets face it, we lug all the gear in there, set up and then pull it all down a day later. 48 hour racing is where it is at. Schedule it for a long weekend. 10am sat to 10am monday. Now thats an enduro.

If your applying for a leave pass from the CFO, then we might as well make it worth the effort.

Soloing is going to hurt.

 

[wilddemon]

I've just been told to pull my finger out and get in shape for one of these events, and with a baby those late finishes could be a game breaker. Especially when the weekend falls on the wedding anniversary. Hipdos tried to warn me but to no avail. Sounds like a great idea to make the event a little more manageable...

 

[alchemist]

I'm thinking 24 hour racing is a bit short. Lets face it, we lug all the gear in there, set up and then pull it all down a day later. 48 hour racing is where it is at. Schedule it for a long weekend. 10am sat to 10am monday. Now thats an enduro.

So you're doing two laps of the HuRT?

 

[akashra]

I tend to find keeping these later is in some ways a good thing. By bringing the start forward, you'll have people trying to get up early for an early start rather than staying overnight close by or on site, making for an extremely long day. Inevitably you'll then get people trying to rush home the same second day very low on sleep.
This isn't a good thing, and it's only a matter of time before there's another serious accident or fatality from someone driving home from an event when they shouldn't have been attempting a 3hr drive home before sleeping.

The solution seems simple - we should make better use of venues like Mt Buller and Mt Beauty where proper (non-camping) accomodation is practically on-site Yes, you heard it here first - I'm nominating Mt Buller as the venue for the Scott to move to. In late September/early October.
Bring snow tyres

 

[alchemist]

I tend to find keeping these later is in some ways a good thing. By bringing the start forward, you'll have people trying to get up early for an early start rather than staying overnight close by or on site, making for an extremely long day. Inevitably you'll then get people trying to rush home the same second day very low on sleep.

My experience (although a few years old) is that very few people, from Sydney at least, stay in Canberra the night of the 24hr. With a lunch time finish at least people will be driving home in the daylight.

Maybe the start should be at 10pm on Friday night.

 

[Delmar]

I tend to find keeping these later is in some ways a good thing. By bringing the start forward, you'll have people trying to get up early for an early start rather than staying overnight close by or on site, making for an extremely long day. Inevitably you'll then get people trying to rush home the same second day very low on sleep.
This isn't a good thing, and it's only a matter of time before there's another serious accident or fatality from someone driving home from an event when they shouldn't have been attempting a 3hr drive home before sleeping.

Yeah I'm with Alchemist here. Only a tiny minority stay around in Canberra afterward. Not sure I can remember it ever hearing of someone doing that. Conversely, I think the majority do head down friday some time. In these cases, your point is moot. In the case of someone getting up saturday and driving down from sydney (for eg), then yes saturday becomes a longer day. But it's a tiring, sleep depriving weekend whichever way. On this safety front I'm not sure we're talking about a huge difference, but to drive home earlier rather than later Sunday seems to me to be a helpful thing.

I think the convenience, ability to sell to family, etc is the bigger advantage.

 

[akashra]

Driving home in daylight or night makes no difference to whether or not they're going to fall asleep at the wheel.
Finishing at midday just encourages them attempting getting home when they got up at 5am Saturday to get there for a 10am start.

On this safety front I'm not sure we're talking about a huge difference, but to drive home earlier rather than later Sunday seems to me to be a helpful thing.

This is a general attitude towards a dismissed issue that needs changing
It's funny the attitudes to driving in this country - drink-driving has now been beaten in to people as a massive 'no', but hopping in the car off being awake 36 with 4 hours broken sleep hours isn't seen as a problem.

Regardless, it makes little difference - as you've somewhat implied, most aren't going to stay regardless of what options they're given.
I know you're joking, but having the race start in the evening isn't actually such a stupid idea, and would make the finish more of a spectacle than a 10am finish.

 

[Antsonline]

Real Change

Whilst we are talking about change, why dont we think about some other things (the start time is a good point btw)?

Cycling is now the largest leisure industry in the world. bike sales in australia are going through the roof too. Road and MTB.
I personally know loads of roadies who race at the Scott and Mont every year as their 'mtb race' for the year - basically to justify another 10k spent on a bike.

I do get the strong feeling that there is a reluctance to really push the sport on.
Lets not kid around - is there anyone who hasnt heard someone say "cycling is the new golf" in the last few years?

So - I read with interest people saying "the race has been great for the last x number of years". Has it really changed? Sure - the timing is better, but beyond that - whats really moving forward.

Look at the Cape Epic - full tent villages, VIP set-ups with massueses, and camper vans for people that want to pay.
At some point, if we want the sport to really grow, someone must take a step and provide a proper 'full fare' race experience.
Of course, there will be those that dont want the sport to change, to be eating beans from a tin at mid-night, but MTB racing and cycling is like that anymore. If it wants to develop it will take a real mid-set change.

I know (again - rich Sydney roadies) a number of people who hire $1000's of dollars of camper vans and kit for the events. Corporate sponsors of teams (look at the BRW Triathlon, or the JP MOrgan Corporate Challenge, of the City to Surf tent village) would piss that amound of money.

I would dare say that the Rockstar comment about the weekend was not that the quality of the event was poor, it was more that it really hasnt developed hugely. There is a reason that there are very very very few 'pro' MTB teams in australia - its because only those that are prepared to push the envelope and develop themselves are attracting dollars.

Stromlo has the facilites to host a bloody amazing event. Live tv cameras on the course for real time updates on huge screens GPS positioning for leaders - realtime, rider demos during the event (Danny Macaskil / Trials), Kids events, Family entertainment. Luxury camping options for anyone that will pay (there is so much money out there - I think I have laboured this point enough), as well as a million more ideas to really develop the sport and bring it to the people.

Do we need 1000 different catagories? "29er singlespeed no suspension" catagories? Why not really think about developing the sport. Have teams od 4 or 6, mixed or single sex. Thats it. Make is huge. Invite real dollars.
Sponsors will come. TV will come. The sport will grow in Australia.

Unfortunately, I wonder whether there is actually the appetite for growth on the scale. I am not a race organiser, I dont want to be flamed for making a suggestion and then not doing it myself. All I want to do is to explain that there is an ENORMOUS market out there for a proper team 24hr event. Bigger than the entire sport of MTB in Australia put together. One event.
Look what the Epic has done for MTB in South Africa.

It takes some big balls and some vision, and unfortunately, probably turning our backs on the minorities (dare I say it - solo riders) for the moment.

Anyway - just my thoughts. Shoot me down.

 

[toby]

Great post and on the money for my thinking...

 

[faz]

It's funny the attitudes to driving in this country - drink-driving has now been beaten in to people as a massive 'no', but hopping in the car off being awake 36 with 4 hours broken sleep hours isn't seen as a problem.

In principle I agree with latter part of that statement, but to suggest drink driving is a massive no, well it may be in principle but in reality it still happens and to some astonishing degrees of stupidity and recklessness.


Antsonline: Great post, but for me personally, my opinion is that sounds like it is being turned into a pro-tour and too costly for those who ride not for the glory and the corporate dollars.

 

[akashra]

Do we need 1000 different catagories? "29er singlespeed no suspension" catagories? Why not really think about developing the sport. Have teams od 4 or 6, mixed or single sex. Thats it. Make is huge. Invite real dollars.
Sponsors will come. TV will come. The sport will grow in Australia.

This is personally where I would like to see big change. Less categories, but pay prizes further down. Don't split a category of 100 in to 4; instead, pay down to 15th.
I don't believe paying prizes down to ~15% of the field is unreasonable, though yes, it is more expensive.

What you've said does beg the question though: If we said to riders "your responsibility is to get yourself and your bike to the local airport, we'll take care of the rest", what would people pay for this, and would what this costs become a profitable business model for any tour organiser? Feedback I've heard seems to say that "fully-catered" event options are still considered too expensive for most.

 

[hipdos]

Antsonline: Great post, but for me personally, my opinion is that sounds like it is being turned into a pro-tour and too costly for those who ride not for the glory and the corporate dollars.

Agree with this. The event is doing OK the way it is, you can over-develop and kill it by alienating the slower riders. They go through enough stress trying to let people pass on the Luge!

I reckon one big improvement could be in the camping areas. Except for the top paddock (which is a long way from transition) it is a dog's breakfast. Throw some coin at it (Stromlo Forest Park, lots of money in the ACT you know..) and build some terraces to get rid of the sloping ground and the eroded bits. And properly delineate the walkways to the village area. And get rid of the blackberries!

They also need a rule that generators need to be turned off at midnight, like the Mont24.

They are my only whinges, otherwise it was a fantastic event, we had a blast. Great that there was no dust, track conditions were brilliant (Except for the hippo bath at the end of the red lap!).

 

[Antsonline]

.....most.

Were the people asked those who had means or desire to pay though? Or were they people participating at a current event? If they were there already, then we dont need to worry about them - they are MTB riders. If they werent there to be asked, then who knows.
I bet they werent there beceause they / their wife / friends all could think of nothing more off-putting than having to put up, and sleep in, a tent in rain, with no 'proper' facilities.

I wont keep responding to everything on here, as I'd love to start an open debate - but my position is to completely rethink how we address participation.

Another example - the London Triathlon - its now the biggest participation Triathlon in the world. Its nearly all teams or corporates doing 'shortened' events. One of the rules is that everyone must wear a wetsuit (safety reasons). Does it stop anyone? Having to buy a $400 wetsuit for the weekend?
Hell no! Bike shops make a huge amount, punters satisfy their need for 'new toys' and its a massive event.
There is an Elite Race there also - its run nearly as a side-show now.

I'm not trying to make the sport more elitist - not for the Glory or the Coportate dollars - far from it. I want to really bring it to the people - not just to those that have a tent, want to wear gum-boots or who live and breath MTB riding.

 

[alchemist]

Do we need 1000 different catagories? "29er singlespeed no suspension" catagories? Why not really think about developing the sport. Have teams od 4 or 6, mixed or single sex. Thats it. Make is huge. Invite real dollars.
Sponsors will come. TV will come. The sport will grow in Australia.

Here's by my rough count who was racing what

Solo Male	30
Solo Female	7
Solo Masters Male	26
Solo Masters Female	2
Solo Singlespeed	13
Pairs	23
Pairs Mixed	8
Three Blokes	16
three Mixed	4
Four Blokes	94
Four Chicks	8
Four Mixed	16
Four Old Blokes	37
Four old Mixed	8
Six Blokes	61
Six Chicks	3
Six Mixed	33
Six Old Blokes	33
Six Old Mixed	10
Junior 8 Blokes	7
Junior 8 Mixed	10
Corporate 10	7

I'd probably ditch threes, keep Solo, Pairs and Fours as the championship categories (can't see why we only award jerseys for the solos and they require a special event for that). The 6s and Corp 10 would be cut down/merged into a non-champ class which I haven't thought too much about yet.

 

[martinpb]

Here's by my rough count who was racing what
.

Looking at that, and taking in Tim's comments about paying down to 15th place in a 100 person catagory - if all of those catagories are paying 1, 2 and 3,

Solo Male 10%
Solo Female 43%
Solo Masters Male 12%
Solo Masters Female 150%
Solo Singlespeed 23%
Pairs 13%
Pairs Mixed 38%
Three Blokes 19%
three Mixed 75%
Four Blokes 3%
Four Chicks 38%
Four Mixed 19%
Four Old Blokes 19%
Four old Mixed 40%
Six Blokes 5%
Six Chicks 100%
Six Mixed 9%
Six Old Blokes 9%
Six Old Mixed 30%
Junior 8 Blokes 43%
Junior 8 Mixed 30%
Corporate 10 43%