Cost of racing - too much? your thoughts?
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This really was the topic of the year on DKNX. I was the State Development Manager (sounds good ay) for CQ (that takes some of the shine off) last year and spent most of my time dealing with this issue.
as far as the licences go, if there is the slightest chance that you will do more than one race each year then a three ride ($33) is the way to go. It makes the cost per ride cheaper and if you decide to venture into clubland then the 33 can come off your annual membership. I actually tried to get CQ to abolish the day licence and only offer the 3 ride as it would encourage return participation and is cheaper in the long run.
the other problem with the licencing is that with the first race of the series in mid June many will only get six months out of a club membership. CA has been banging on about introducing a rolling licence for a while now but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. The MTBA licence is half the price of CA because it does not include the same extent of medical coverage (not that CA covers much if you read the fine print). both licences cover you, the promoter and the land holder forpublic liability up to some amount with lots of 0000s.
As for the entry fee for the racing itself. Some very rough figures from last years state champs go are;
Entries 70 @ $45 3150
Fuel 600
Van hire 150
Landowners fee
($5 per rider) 350
Hosting club
($2.2 per rider) 154
Medals 300
Total Surplus 1596
I think that there would have been a few other outgoings but can not think what or how much (but I don't think it was much). We also received about $600 (retail) of swag from fox in the form of videos, gloves and jerseys. I know that alot of you will jump up and down at those figures, and I would too as a rider. CQ however has certain targets to reach in order to keep its State Government funding, one of those is making a profit from events.
During my time at CQ I pushed hard to keep the SEQ clubs from going to MTBA partly because it was my job and also because I wanted to see racing return to what it was like in the late ninetys with about 12 races across QLD with 70 - 100 riders at each event. I could not see such a thing working under MTBA as there was no one organsing point. Unfortunately the CQ council did not see the benifits of mtb membership to the point where I was constantly having to justify the time I spent on mtb (which was about 98% with 2% on road).
CQ needs to keep going, with out mtb clubs in CQ all of our international riders will need to join interstate or road clubs to get their uci licences. The current staff are still supportive of MTBs however they have a road background. The new development manager, whilst I do not know her position on MTBs and have only met her once, I have heard great things about her in her previous roles withing the sport industry. I am sure that she would be prepared to take on board any comments.
As for a solution to the prices , I don't think that there is any easy one in the near future. with the emergence of private promoters such as Finlay Promotions and Two Wheel Promotions there is going to be a profit component that may not be needed in a club (eg NRG) race. The licences is a national issue and last I heard Nigel Walker is Chairing the AMBA commission. Nigel was CEO of CQ for many years, is a keen mtb rider and has done some great things for the sport in Queensland so I would trust that all that can be done is being done.
Sorry that every time I post it goes on for ever.
I will also apologise again for the Thunderbird Park 4x track. (it was getting bagged in another topic.)
as far as the licences go, if there is the slightest chance that you will do more than one race each year then a three ride ($33) is the way to go. It makes the cost per ride cheaper and if you decide to venture into clubland then the 33 can come off your annual membership. I actually tried to get CQ to abolish the day licence and only offer the 3 ride as it would encourage return participation and is cheaper in the long run.
the other problem with the licencing is that with the first race of the series in mid June many will only get six months out of a club membership. CA has been banging on about introducing a rolling licence for a while now but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. The MTBA licence is half the price of CA because it does not include the same extent of medical coverage (not that CA covers much if you read the fine print). both licences cover you, the promoter and the land holder forpublic liability up to some amount with lots of 0000s.
As for the entry fee for the racing itself. Some very rough figures from last years state champs go are;
Entries 70 @ $45 3150
Fuel 600
Van hire 150
Landowners fee
($5 per rider) 350
Hosting club
($2.2 per rider) 154
Medals 300
Total Surplus 1596
I think that there would have been a few other outgoings but can not think what or how much (but I don't think it was much). We also received about $600 (retail) of swag from fox in the form of videos, gloves and jerseys. I know that alot of you will jump up and down at those figures, and I would too as a rider. CQ however has certain targets to reach in order to keep its State Government funding, one of those is making a profit from events.
During my time at CQ I pushed hard to keep the SEQ clubs from going to MTBA partly because it was my job and also because I wanted to see racing return to what it was like in the late ninetys with about 12 races across QLD with 70 - 100 riders at each event. I could not see such a thing working under MTBA as there was no one organsing point. Unfortunately the CQ council did not see the benifits of mtb membership to the point where I was constantly having to justify the time I spent on mtb (which was about 98% with 2% on road).
CQ needs to keep going, with out mtb clubs in CQ all of our international riders will need to join interstate or road clubs to get their uci licences. The current staff are still supportive of MTBs however they have a road background. The new development manager, whilst I do not know her position on MTBs and have only met her once, I have heard great things about her in her previous roles withing the sport industry. I am sure that she would be prepared to take on board any comments.
As for a solution to the prices , I don't think that there is any easy one in the near future. with the emergence of private promoters such as Finlay Promotions and Two Wheel Promotions there is going to be a profit component that may not be needed in a club (eg NRG) race. The licences is a national issue and last I heard Nigel Walker is Chairing the AMBA commission. Nigel was CEO of CQ for many years, is a keen mtb rider and has done some great things for the sport in Queensland so I would trust that all that can be done is being done.
Sorry that every time I post it goes on for ever.
I will also apologise again for the Thunderbird Park 4x track. (it was getting bagged in another topic.)
The whole CA vs MTBA debate will continue for as long at CA refuses to give MTB's the authority they need. When I refer to CA I refer to the member constituent bodies, not necessarily the National Office.
Last year the CA MTB Commission and the MTBA came to an agreement which would have seen MTB unite under an autonomous body affiliated with CA, but independent. This I understand is similar to BMX which is a separate body, but still UCI recognised.
Unfortunately when it went to the CA state bodies to vote, they voted against unification. So the bulk of clubs on the east coast of Australia went MTBA. Many retained dual affiliation, that is with both parties. The Nth Queensland clubs were the first in Qld to do the dual affiliation thing and then later went full MTBA. This year in SE Qld most clubs went dual affiliation, some CQ and only the GCMB went only MTBA (However we will process a CA affiliation for a member if they wish as a service to our members.) I think the MTB Park is also MTBA only although I am note sure if they are a club or a promoter, not that makes a difference (Shane, can you shed some light on this?)
Back to the issue. CQ had the chance to get the sport unified, however they did not support the vote for unification. So a lot of clubs broke away and now we have 2 series in SEQ with differing fees. This is a stance some of the clubs are taking on the basis that a short term inconvenience (Two groups) will result in a long term benefit.
For CQ, you can get a day license for $22 or an MTBA one for $10. A 3 day CQ license is $33, but you must use it in a 3 month period. As for the additional insurances offered by CQ/CA, if you have private cover like MBF or whatever, it takes priority even if you have paid for the CA policy. An even if you claim on the policy, I hear it can be a nightmare.
The bottom line is that CA wishes to have MTB under its umbrella, however current perceptions in the MTB community are that CA is not servicing the sport. This is why MTBA exists. It is time for CA to give MTB autonomy for its own future, however keep MTBs affiliated so Cycling as a sport can prosper.
Does Badminton Australia or Squash Australia come under Tennis Australia? No. They all use racquets, but are separate unique sports. MTB's and Road Cycling and Track Cycling are far more diverse than Squash and Tennis, but MTBs are willing to come under a separate Cycling banner if CA would allow autonomy. I believe that with the number of clubs that went MTBA this year, CA and MTBA will negotiate a successful merger in 2004 to benefit the whole MTBA community. I hope so anyway.
But back to the topic. Why does racing cost so much? It depends on where you race. The GCMB charges $5 for DH races (No Shuttle) and so does NRG. I think Shane charges $10 at the MTB Park but that includes Shuttles. Note these are fees for members, non-members need a day license $10 MTBA or $22 CQ. So lets say that racing on average is $5 to $10. How much to hire a video or go to a movie? $5 to $10? Sometimes more. So which would you prefer?
As for the cost of National or State rounds - I paid about $90 for the Fellcrag round, had about 5 practice runs and 1 race run. So 6 runs at $15 a run. Sounds expensive. Maybe, but to participate in a National event, line up with and ride a shuttle with the likes of Rennie, Kovarik, Hannah and Wode, then watch them ride for free, its worth every cent. That was a one off special occasion and worth a premium.
The bottom line is if you don't think its worth it, don’t do it. Why buy a Crown Lager for $5 if you don’t think it is worth it. But if you are happy with a $2.50 XXXX, knock yourself out and buy one.
$30 for a 'State" round race is not unreasonable. However the $22 CQ day licence is when compared to the $10 MTBA one. Also look at the Club fees, about $92 for full racing licence with a MTBA club and almost double for a CQ club, why, because MTBA does not have a state body to support.
I am all for a unified sport of Mountain Biking, but not if that means supporting a level of bureaucracy that does not service its members.
Last year the CA MTB Commission and the MTBA came to an agreement which would have seen MTB unite under an autonomous body affiliated with CA, but independent. This I understand is similar to BMX which is a separate body, but still UCI recognised.
Unfortunately when it went to the CA state bodies to vote, they voted against unification. So the bulk of clubs on the east coast of Australia went MTBA. Many retained dual affiliation, that is with both parties. The Nth Queensland clubs were the first in Qld to do the dual affiliation thing and then later went full MTBA. This year in SE Qld most clubs went dual affiliation, some CQ and only the GCMB went only MTBA (However we will process a CA affiliation for a member if they wish as a service to our members.) I think the MTB Park is also MTBA only although I am note sure if they are a club or a promoter, not that makes a difference (Shane, can you shed some light on this?)
Back to the issue. CQ had the chance to get the sport unified, however they did not support the vote for unification. So a lot of clubs broke away and now we have 2 series in SEQ with differing fees. This is a stance some of the clubs are taking on the basis that a short term inconvenience (Two groups) will result in a long term benefit.
For CQ, you can get a day license for $22 or an MTBA one for $10. A 3 day CQ license is $33, but you must use it in a 3 month period. As for the additional insurances offered by CQ/CA, if you have private cover like MBF or whatever, it takes priority even if you have paid for the CA policy. An even if you claim on the policy, I hear it can be a nightmare.
The bottom line is that CA wishes to have MTB under its umbrella, however current perceptions in the MTB community are that CA is not servicing the sport. This is why MTBA exists. It is time for CA to give MTB autonomy for its own future, however keep MTBs affiliated so Cycling as a sport can prosper.
Does Badminton Australia or Squash Australia come under Tennis Australia? No. They all use racquets, but are separate unique sports. MTB's and Road Cycling and Track Cycling are far more diverse than Squash and Tennis, but MTBs are willing to come under a separate Cycling banner if CA would allow autonomy. I believe that with the number of clubs that went MTBA this year, CA and MTBA will negotiate a successful merger in 2004 to benefit the whole MTBA community. I hope so anyway.
But back to the topic. Why does racing cost so much? It depends on where you race. The GCMB charges $5 for DH races (No Shuttle) and so does NRG. I think Shane charges $10 at the MTB Park but that includes Shuttles. Note these are fees for members, non-members need a day license $10 MTBA or $22 CQ. So lets say that racing on average is $5 to $10. How much to hire a video or go to a movie? $5 to $10? Sometimes more. So which would you prefer?
As for the cost of National or State rounds - I paid about $90 for the Fellcrag round, had about 5 practice runs and 1 race run. So 6 runs at $15 a run. Sounds expensive. Maybe, but to participate in a National event, line up with and ride a shuttle with the likes of Rennie, Kovarik, Hannah and Wode, then watch them ride for free, its worth every cent. That was a one off special occasion and worth a premium.
The bottom line is if you don't think its worth it, don’t do it. Why buy a Crown Lager for $5 if you don’t think it is worth it. But if you are happy with a $2.50 XXXX, knock yourself out and buy one.
$30 for a 'State" round race is not unreasonable. However the $22 CQ day licence is when compared to the $10 MTBA one. Also look at the Club fees, about $92 for full racing licence with a MTBA club and almost double for a CQ club, why, because MTBA does not have a state body to support.
I am all for a unified sport of Mountain Biking, but not if that means supporting a level of bureaucracy that does not service its members.
"The bottom line is if you don't think its worth it, don’t do it. Why buy a Crown Lager for $5 if you don’t think it is worth it. But if you are happy with a $2.50 XXXX, knock yourself out and buy one. "
hahahaha, I paid £40 (AUS$100) for a carton of Crownies last week.
Thats right cam I had forgotten about the members vote for amalgamation. This was originally looking good and I put forward a huge file to the CQ executive but in the end they voted against the amalgamation. (One of the deciding reasons it was not worth working there anymore). They are scared that if mtbers get a level of autonomy other people will get the same idea such as having breakaway masters groups on the road. Unfortunatley they do not understand the sport properly and therefore do not understand how to manage it.
hahahaha, I paid £40 (AUS$100) for a carton of Crownies last week.
Thats right cam I had forgotten about the members vote for amalgamation. This was originally looking good and I put forward a huge file to the CQ executive but in the end they voted against the amalgamation. (One of the deciding reasons it was not worth working there anymore). They are scared that if mtbers get a level of autonomy other people will get the same idea such as having breakaway masters groups on the road. Unfortunatley they do not understand the sport properly and therefore do not understand how to manage it.
RaID
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Well here in adelaide its (Expert $30 Novice $25
All other categories $20 race) + $5 transport +$10 day license +$5 plate deposit (refundable)
so yeh its $40 to race for novice new riders
its expensive yes, but like someone else said other forms of sport are much more expensive eg motorsport
all the effort that goes into building the tracks maintaining them, organising all other aspects i think it is probably reasonable
its just that people look at that im paying $40 to ride once down a hill when ill be timed
why do that if i can go do the same track the day before the race not even pay for transport and do it for pretty much only petrol money to get there
if more of these people were willing to actually spend the money and race
maybe the cost would go down
i think the only real way that costs could go down is if more people help out organising building anyother way to assist the clubs regarding the races
i know i dont go out and do this mainly cause i dont have time and if i have spare time id rather be riding, but then again im quite happy to pay the entry fee so that i can race
All other categories $20 race) + $5 transport +$10 day license +$5 plate deposit (refundable)
so yeh its $40 to race for novice new riders
its expensive yes, but like someone else said other forms of sport are much more expensive eg motorsport
all the effort that goes into building the tracks maintaining them, organising all other aspects i think it is probably reasonable
its just that people look at that im paying $40 to ride once down a hill when ill be timed
why do that if i can go do the same track the day before the race not even pay for transport and do it for pretty much only petrol money to get there
if more of these people were willing to actually spend the money and race
maybe the cost would go down
i think the only real way that costs could go down is if more people help out organising building anyother way to assist the clubs regarding the races
i know i dont go out and do this mainly cause i dont have time and if i have spare time id rather be riding, but then again im quite happy to pay the entry fee so that i can race
mtbdh_girl
Likes Dirt
a recent meeting iin vic b/w csv and mtba came up with this because no one was going to the csv cross country races (which were on the same w/e as the mtba ones.... :?: :
so things are looking up in some ways
Hi Cam....
Club races for members are $5 (for shuttles)
$10 mtba day license (if required)
Non-members $10 for whole day
Non Club Races are $15 for whole day
$10 mtba license (if required)
Once the racing is finished you are still covered to ride the park and have the shuttles. So you can ride all the tracks at the park and not pay any extra.
There are a few cost involved in setting up races, but at the end of the day the cost should stay down to get more riders into the sport.
Club races for members are $5 (for shuttles)
$10 mtba day license (if required)
Non-members $10 for whole day
Non Club Races are $15 for whole day
$10 mtba license (if required)
Once the racing is finished you are still covered to ride the park and have the shuttles. So you can ride all the tracks at the park and not pay any extra.
There are a few cost involved in setting up races, but at the end of the day the cost should stay down to get more riders into the sport.
That's WAY over simplified, and the costs are very low on some of the items. $150 van hire, you must be getting rent a bombs. We hired troopies for Oceanis at about $250 per day, 5 troopies, 4 days each, plus the damage done to them (courtesy of bike being dragged on roofs, arieal stolen etc), came in at well over $5000.Stinky said:
Dunny hire $150+ per day
PA hire $90 per day (and I still get people who don't farkin listen to 15 calls I put out for their category)
Etc. etc. etc. etc etc.
Ongoing costs for the club that are spread over as many races as possible...... membership to the associations, computers for timing/results at $2000 a piece, trailers (a shitload unless you got mates at BHP), etc. You have to factor in things that you don't see on race day.
And you all have to pay my bar tab at the end of the weekend, that's alot, after having a few Johny and cokes to calm my nerve after dealing with whining downhillers.
I laugh myself to sleep when I hear that some other private organisations are planning to put on a race series. The networking (outside of MTBing) and planning that really needs to happen often makes them fall over in the end (as DH racing is constantly teetering on the edge of).
Anyway, Cindie says that's enough whining from me for one night.
Bring on the flames!
CG
Az
Likes Dirt
$30 bucks to race would be sweet!!!! But in the end it's the clubs that put on the events and they can't be expected to run at a loss.
I an ideal world, event sponsorship would keep the costs of racing down. But thats not going to happen too soon, the scene over here is to small. All the CA & MTBA shit that has gone on for the last few years hasnt helped.
Hopefully with the Aussies guys & gals kicking arse overseas MTB can get some decent media exposure and we can move on from there.
The sport needs to get it's shit together big time, here in vic we cant have decent state series because the only club willing to run DH events is FTF.
I an ideal world, event sponsorship would keep the costs of racing down. But thats not going to happen too soon, the scene over here is to small. All the CA & MTBA shit that has gone on for the last few years hasnt helped.
Hopefully with the Aussies guys & gals kicking arse overseas MTB can get some decent media exposure and we can move on from there.
The sport needs to get it's shit together big time, here in vic we cant have decent state series because the only club willing to run DH events is FTF.
what is everyone using for timing that costs $2000?
i rekon thats pretty nuts. whats wrong using a laptop and two IR beams that when broken stop the time. It isn't that hard to set up something along those lines, and the power inside a little laptop is getting pretty extreme, so no lagging or anything will be an issue.
go to the local jaycar and have a chat. A fellcrag system should be pretty easy. and there are enough computer geeks/wizzes around the pits to write a basic program that can handle everything.
i dunno, maybe im dreaming. let me hear what everyone thinks.
i rekon thats pretty nuts. whats wrong using a laptop and two IR beams that when broken stop the time. It isn't that hard to set up something along those lines, and the power inside a little laptop is getting pretty extreme, so no lagging or anything will be an issue.
go to the local jaycar and have a chat. A fellcrag system should be pretty easy. and there are enough computer geeks/wizzes
around the pits to write a basic program that can handle everything.i dunno, maybe im dreaming. let me hear what everyone thinks.
S.
ex offender
So am I, but when races are sometimes won by 1/100th of a second (Maribor WC last year), it matters.belly_up said:or we could use synchronised stop watches and walkie talkies like normal people
i'm quite happy to have my time measured to the nearest second, rather than the nearest hundredth thereof.
We get the local 4x4 club involved and just pay each driver $100 to cover fuel and any damage. Saves all the hassel of hiring and returning troopies. The van hire was just to get all of the assorted crap out on site. Portaloos and dj hire I tend to get at mates rates. (thanks PJ.). As a state body, alot of the equipment (laptops, video, tents etc etc)has already been purchased for the roadies so does not really get costed in.inlina said:
But you are right in that there are alot of hidden costs that a club/promoter will have to cater for. At current costs there is not a great deal of fat left over for the promoter. Not to say that raising the entry fee would help either.