E Bike at Cross Country Endurance Event

[Ideate]

So - here are some reasons for you that eMTBs should kept off tracks that are not designated for motorised vehicles.


[*]Because these are motorised, they are attracting attention of regulators. (Yes - its happening. Councils, National Parks bodies, State land departments ARE starting to look at this) This will lead to more regulation and potential closure of areas currently available to us. And because of this misguided approach that eMTBs are the same as mountain bikes, the regulations and closures will affect all MTB riders. Not a great outcome.

You might be correct but it's hard to tell as you've provided no evidence "it's happening" in Australia as a result of ebikes. I'd even assume that relationships with land owners and biking advocates are already fragile. Warburton is a prime example. Bright would also be a good example especially since Hero opened. The hospital had about 10 people visit every weekend with broken collar bones. Do you think they were like.. "Ahh fuck all those ebikes! Let's rally to shut it down!".

Anyway, regardless of if they are or not , I think it'd be a good thing for councils and representatives to look deeper into the ebike technology and create proper regulations that restrict equipment that may represent actual risk to the park lands and stakeholders. They'd soon realise that the current batch of legal ebikes are perfectly fine but I'm not sure how they'd go about regulating higher powered ebikes?

How do they keep actual motor bikes off their tracks now? What's the process? Do they get a complaint? And then the cops turn up? If that's how it works then why shouldn't it be the same for over powered ebikes? But you say.. People can't tell if it's an overpowered ebike because they all look the same? If they're doing the right thing then maybe it'd be hard to tell the difference but it'd be clear as day if you saw them ripping up trails like an actual motorbike with no pedalling, endangering other riders and damaging tracks? Would it not? Honest question.


Also if you want to keep harping on about vocabulary technicalities; it has a "motor" and it's on a "bike" so it's a "motor-bike". Then I'll be pedantic and reference eMTB riders the same as MTB riders as they're still on a "bike" and they're still riding on a "mountain" = MTB rider. These two stakeholders you're trying to divide are the same people.

NEXT!

That was probably your only valid point so the rest will be easy.

[*]Speed & skill. Human powered bikes take effort to get uphill & that tends to be a limiting factor in the down hill. As people build strength & fitness they tend to also build skills. eMTBs allow those with little skill to ride more & faster, but not safer...

No.

[*]Removing the essence of mountain biking...

No.

[*]Safety. We will see people with poor fitness & a very heavy machine run out of battery in wilderness areas, who will find it difficult to extricate themselves.

No.

[*]Human power inherently limits current speeds for MTB activity. Motors do not.

No.

If you're not fit and want to bomb down hills, there are already options. Go to Buller or Thredbo & use the lifts. Or go somewhere with a shuttle service.

I do.

If you want to ride your motorised bike to gain longer distance, use the trails already available for motorised vehicles. But keep your motor bike off the trails designated for human powered activity.

I think you're still confused about the definition of ebikes I'm advocating for. Or you're simply jelly beans and upset that now people like myself are happy to join you on rides where there wouldn't be any shuttles running.

Sadly though, these things will be here to stay. The manufacturers will want to sell high margin high value products, and will cater to laziness and sloth in order to attract more people to buy them. All hail the mighty dollar.

Yes of course but doesn't that happen already? Are you now being discriminative? Why are you the only person that should be subject to high profit margins??? Why can't lazy sloths be ripped off too??? ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY DOLLAR!!



Edit: When racing, all variables other than the people should be the same.

 

[Ideate]

It would work by using the inertia from the motor to control the rotation of the bike in the air. You do the same thing on a dirt bike, rev the bike in the air will lift the front wheel, brake the rear wheel will drop the front but in the e-bike case this must happen automatically I suppose.

Yeah I do that now on the Darkside sometimes. It's more a reflex or me just stuffing around in the air. I'm not sure how it'd work exactly with the mid drive though. Would it control the rear wheel? Or would it have enough inertia from the motor itself?



Edit: ebike racing should have it's own category.

 

[Ideate]

Did a demo day at Orange yesterday with DG cycles. They had merdia 160mm e bikes. They are friggin awesome.

Did they have the green 900E model for testing or the 800 raw only? I've been waiting for my 900E delivery since July! The progression for ebikes will be weight reduction, not speed like those scaremongers keep insisting on. It's such a natural and logical path for development considering how heavy they are now. Being so fit and XC already, you could get one with less juice to reduce the weight or install one of those Vivax motors (if they weren't so expensive).





Edit: Hiding a Vivax in your BB is cheating!

 

[pink poodle]

I've ridden one and I'm still unconvinced, they remind me of a bloke that needs to use a dildo on their misses because they can't perform anymore. Some blokes might like that but not me.

Are you kidding me??? I use like 6 at one and a lot of gaff tape. This allows me to kick back on the lounge cruising rooter burn until the ~5 seconds I'm useful for arrives.

Yeah I do that now on the Darkside sometimes. It's more a reflex or me just stuffing around in the air. I'm not sure how it'd work exactly with the mid drive though. Would it control the rear wheel? Or would it have enough inertia from the motor itself?



Edit: ebike racing should have it's own category.

I'd imagine there is some kind of angle measuring device and a stop-start feed to the rear end. I use a gentle tap of the rear brake on some of the smaller local jumps when trying to control my mega whips or my amazing whip-tuck combination. These tricks are so beautiful to see I like to slow down for my spectators.

How do they keep actual motor bikes off their tracks now?

With foul language and thinly veiled threats.

 

[slowmick]

Talking with mates on the weekend about e-bikes. Two have tried and enjoyed the experience. Both also crashed the demo bikes. The popular crash seemed to be high siding uphill into a berm where the bike allows you to carry much more speed than you expect and the trail is just not designed for it. Both experienced MTB and motorbike rider's described it as a motorbike style accident rather than a pushie accident. The bit that surprised me was the comment that they work better if you ride them like a motorbike.

I am looking forward to trying one. I think for many people an e-bike will be like an effects pedal for a guitar - it will open a whole world of possibilities but if you are ordinary now it will probably make you extra-ordinary...

 

[B Rabbit]

I crashed one up a hill with a front wheel wash out. But I think was I in boost mode, a lower power setting makes climbing easier I think.

 

[mas2]

I guess I think of e-mtbs like comparing cross country skiing with downhill skiing. It helps you get to the top of the mountain to enjoy the run down. Both are physically demanding in their own ways and I know which I would prefer doing. Sure there will be logistics to sort out with trails and access but that always happens with everything new. I think I saw on MTBR somewhere that a MTB rep said that 40% of all new mtb sales in Europe are e-mtbs, so the same will probably happen here soon too.

 

[pink poodle]

I crashed one up a hill with a front wheel wash out. But I think was I in boost mode, a lower power setting makes climbing easier I think.

Look at you working the industry buzz words...

Sure there will be logistics to sort out with trails and access but that always happens with everything new.

I think I saw on MTBR somewhere that a MTB rep said that 40% of all new mtb sales in Europe are e-mtbs, so the same will probably happen here soon too.

There is still ski fields that prohibit snowboards.

I saw 1 in 2 long days of riding. I saw it at glenrock lagoon...a place that is mostly flat, so why lug all that weight around???

 

[mas2]

There is still ski fields that prohibit snowboards.

There were also states that banned cars because they would put the horse and buggy companies out of business. I think that change is inevitable but it would be better for people to work out how to get along sooner rather than later.

I saw 1 in 2 long days of riding. I saw it at glenrock lagoon...a place that is mostly flat, so why lug all that weight around???

Most e-mtbs seem to weigh half of a 10 year old 26" Orange and people still rode them around. The weight will come down on the bikes but I do wonder how much the extra weight and placement of it changes the handling and effects the way it rides.

 

[Lazmo]

Yesterday at Lysty, my wife and I were after a cruisy ride, and headed out slow, but got suckered into trying to keep ahead of a large mixed group of riders on middle trail and up c~nt hill (as a mate calls it) so when we arrived at the late George Michaels carpark, we were all out of breath and toast and having a good laugh with the group we were trying to stay ahead of.

At the toilet block water tap, there was a guy pushing an ebike around, and when I said to my wife, look an ebike, he just walked off. No eye contact, no interaction, he was clearly embarrassed. He didn’t leave, he just got scarce, and hovered over in the distance. Stuff that. I’m 60 years old, and would rather ride up, would rather have something in common with the others that were riding up. We were all sweating and huffing and puffing and it made for some good rapport and funny commentary. We had something to laugh about. Ebike bike guy, looked like he’d just walked from the carpark. Maybe he had, maybe he hadn’t started his ride, I couldn’t tell. Expressionless, no sign of exertion, nothing to talk about, nothing to relate, alone.

I been riding two wheels almost my entire life and want to do it for as long as possible. I would hope I’ve more than ten years left on the trails. Fifteen years at least. The biggest jump I do now is about 2 foot. I don’t bounce like I used too. There may be a time when an ebike is all I can ride. I hope to delay that day as long as possible.

 

[pink poodle]

I'm sure riding style comes into it as well. I'm guessing that they are cutting a lap of the epic flat xc track and then I see the fee I've seen rock through the dirt (more like dust) jumps on them and the weight clearly makes the bikes awkward. I put my sook pants on when I ride my enduro through there because it is a little bit heavier than my pivot. I have seen a few ride the more adventurous trails in the area but not taking the A-lines (nothing epic 3-7m gaps and so on) and have guessed weight, confidence, and skill al stopping that. And I have seen 2 of them try and rock up a steep very obvious down section that is difficult to pull up on. I felt that a bit foolish as you race into it blind and fast. They didn't make it.

The weight down low is going to be better than sitting it on the top tube.

I wish the ground wasn't so dry. Even walking on it is eroding it.

 

[Ideate]

... there was a guy pushing an ebike around, and when I said to my wife, look an ebike, he just walked off. No eye contact, no interaction, he was clearly embarrassed. He didn’t leave, he just got scarce, and hovered over in the distance. Stuff that. I’m 60 years old, and would rather ride up, would rather have something in common with the others that were riding up. We were all sweating and huffing and puffing and it made for some good rapport and funny commentary. We had something to laugh about...

What a sad picture you paint of this poor bloke trying to get out for a ride. Having a bunch of people ridicule and disquiet him sounds about right coming from Lysterfield. I once saw a bloke tow a small yacht through the gates behind his red 80's Porsche 928 wearing a knitted sweater around his neck. True story. That place definitely attracts more pompous pricks than other places.

Besides, he was probably made awkward by all the gear you were packing and simply put off by all that unwelcoming culture (nothing to do with his bike). It'd put anyone off.


HEY! DARling! Look at his EEEEEEE-BIKE! Har har har!




I've only had one old fart give me the frown eye when his son pointed out I had a motor slung to my bottom bracket. Every other single person has been positive and wanted to know more about how it worked including young whippers, cashed up middle aged carbon weight weenies and retired fixed mindset geezers (I can sometimes feel the tension but they warm to the idea when I explain how it works and what I use it for). They usually make an effort to engage and I reciprocated as we share a common interest. They don't make an effort to ride off and exchange funny commentary about the huffing and puffing etc et ceteraaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.




Edit: If I was racing in an XC event and someone passed me on an ebike I'd make them feel unwelcome too.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I am looking forward to trying one. I think for many people an e-bike will be like an effects pedal for a guitar - it will open a whole world of possibilities but if you are ordinary now it will probably make you extra-ordinary...

Go for it, I demo'd a lapierre pedalec, my mind could not grasp that I was pedalling uphill but if felt like i was pedalling downhill, very freaky feeling on the first ride.

View attachment 340451

Well, I don't want to objectivefy these blokes, but 4, 3, 5, 1, 2.

 

[ozzybmx]

Talking with mates on the weekend about e-bikes. Two have tried and enjoyed the experience.

There's no doubt we would all enjoy them, it's like having a go on a mates Dirt Bike or Jet Ski.

 

[moorey]

There's no doubt we would all enjoy them, it's like having a go on a mates Dirt Bike or Jet Ski.

Jet skis are just motos for coastal bogans. Zero interest in them. (Yes, I've tried one)

 

[ozzybmx]

Jet skis are just motos for coastal bogans. Zero interest in them. (Yes, I've tried one)

You ride an Orange 26er...

 

[Lazmo]

Having a bunch of people ridicule and disquiet him sounds about right coming from Lysterfield

No one ridiculed him. Nobody was giving him grief. The laughter was not about ebiker guy, it was about being knackered from the climb. The others didn’t even notice him, as my wife and I got in first and he created some distance straight away.

My… 'look an ebike' was not a jibe, it was a statement to my wife who is not technical. You don't know me, but I'm that old fart who will talk to anyone. Even ebike riders.

But since you weren't there, maybe you really know how it was, with me packing all that gear and rolling out the unwelcoming culture and all. I had no idea my 2010 2x9 Stumpjumper (with dropper post) was so prodigious. Excellent, I feel good about riding it now… I think I’ll keep it.

And yes, I felt a bit sad for the ebiker dude, too.

 

[Ideate]

But since you weren't there, maybe you really know how it was, with me packing all that gear and rolling out the unwelcoming culture and all. I had no idea my 2010 2x9 Stumpjumper (with dropper post) was so prodigious. Excellent, I feel good about riding it now… I think I’ll keep it.

And yes, I felt a bit sad for the ebiker dude, too.

I wasn't referring to your bike gear m8.

I couldn't care less what you're riding but if I think you're making fun of me with your wife or mates then I'm not going to feel like being very social. It's intimidating for some people and makes you feel like shit which is how I assume this guy felt by the way you wrote your story. (Ebiker all alone after you pointed out his ebike then proceeded to laugh and chatter among each other about the great time you were all having).

So no, I wasn't there and you're probably a nice bloke but you're possibly in denial about alienating this bloke (unintentionally?). You're also biased on ebikes but I'm not sure why?

Because you think ebikes make you anti social and alone? Is this a new argument to add to the list?



Edit: if I was racing an ebike in a xc event, I'd feel uncomfortable and shameful. Unless I was doing it for fun.

 

[toodles]

Ok so we decide 250W e-bikes are fine on trails, they're still "bikes", people still need to put effort in, they help the elderly/infirm get out and enjoy trails.

Next week, I've got a 1000W e-bike. Whats the problem? It's still pedal-assist, I'm just a bit more infirm than you are and need more help.

Next month, I've got a 10kW e-bike. Why is it not allowed? Your 250W e-bike and 1000W e-bikes are allowed! I just get sore lungs when I exert myself! Why can't I ride on the same trails.

6 months later - my 60kW 2-stroke is essentially just a non-electric version of your e-bike! Why are you discriminating against me because I can't afford a high end electric bike!?

Of course I'm being silly here but I think we can agree that the sooner the e-bike menace is destroyed, the bikes banned, the factories burnt and the riders shamed, then the better for the world.

 

[pink poodle]

Of course I'm being silly here but I think we can agree that the sooner the e-bike menace is destroyed, the bikes banned, the factories burnt and the riders shamed, then the better for the world.

Sounds like someone is calling a crusade.