Fast times- Fitness vs Skill
- Thread starter Viv92
- Start date
S.
ex offender
I just raced today and this is fresh in my mind cos I was thinking about and discussing exactly the same thing with a few other guys...
Skill (encompassing technique, fear/confidence, willingness to take risks, etc) is critical. It doesn't matter how fit you are if your technique can't physically get you through a corner/section fast. Hit a section (whether that's a single corner or a 20 second chunk of track) time and time again, see if you can hit it at whatever speed you're setting as your benchmark (in this case, your mate Mark). If you can't, practice the technique until you can.
However, if you're actually racing over more than about 30 seconds at a time, fitness and strength are huge factors. I don't know what you're like, but my fitness sucks, and it makes a significant difference to how fast you can ride when you're 2 minutes into a rough 4 minute track and your forearms feel so weak that you can barely hold onto the bars. You can see how big the difference is (esp if you have a Freelap system) by timing yourself between two points, say across 3 corners or whatever, near the end of the track. Time how fast you can do it all if you start just above the first point, so you can come into it flat out but not tired, then time how long it takes when you start from the top of the track, so that you're tired by the time you get there.
Chris Kovarik won the 2002 Fort William world cup by 14 seconds. When he was interviewed about it a few years later, he was asked what he thought the difference was back then, how he could win by so much when he was (at the time) having to fight tooth and nail just to get on the podium (this was when he'd just come back after breaking his leg really bad). His reply was that fitness was a huge factor - "normally you get halfway down the track and you're half f**ked". Being able to hit sections at the end of the track as hard as you would if they were at the start of the track certainly makes a difference.
However, fortunately for some of us lazy bastards, DH is far more about skill than it is about fitness. A very skillful but unfit rider will still typically put big margins into a very fit but unskilled rider.
Disclaimer: take this with a grain of salt, I'm not the one winning any races
Skill (encompassing technique, fear/confidence, willingness to take risks, etc) is critical. It doesn't matter how fit you are if your technique can't physically get you through a corner/section fast. Hit a section (whether that's a single corner or a 20 second chunk of track) time and time again, see if you can hit it at whatever speed you're setting as your benchmark (in this case, your mate Mark). If you can't, practice the technique until you can.
However, if you're actually racing over more than about 30 seconds at a time, fitness and strength are huge factors. I don't know what you're like, but my fitness sucks, and it makes a significant difference to how fast you can ride when you're 2 minutes into a rough 4 minute track and your forearms feel so weak that you can barely hold onto the bars. You can see how big the difference is (esp if you have a Freelap system) by timing yourself between two points, say across 3 corners or whatever, near the end of the track. Time how fast you can do it all if you start just above the first point, so you can come into it flat out but not tired, then time how long it takes when you start from the top of the track, so that you're tired by the time you get there.
Chris Kovarik won the 2002 Fort William world cup by 14 seconds. When he was interviewed about it a few years later, he was asked what he thought the difference was back then, how he could win by so much when he was (at the time) having to fight tooth and nail just to get on the podium (this was when he'd just come back after breaking his leg really bad). His reply was that fitness was a huge factor - "normally you get halfway down the track and you're half f**ked". Being able to hit sections at the end of the track as hard as you would if they were at the start of the track certainly makes a difference.
However, fortunately for some of us lazy bastards, DH is far more about skill than it is about fitness. A very skillful but unfit rider will still typically put big margins into a very fit but unskilled rider.
Disclaimer: take this with a grain of salt, I'm not the one winning any races
S.
ex offender
I'm not 100% sure, but in any case the interview was after he'd broken his leg and he didn't seem to think his fitness was at the same level it was in 2002.
kill_switch
Dead-set Idiot
S. you are my posting Idol
Tomsy
Likes Dirt
there are other things that effect wether you keep up with your mates. Yesterday I rode with a mate of mine who has ridden for the same time as me and we have pretty similar spec bikes. and on the twisty stuff I would get a lead over him and in the wider and straighter tracks he would cover the distance at about 1.5 times as fast as i did. So I would be doing like 30k's and he would still be comfortabe at 45k's
Rhys_
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Line choice is pretty important on sections of that track. I think in your case going by your description, maybe it isn't fitness, it's mostly skill. Without having been there, it might have looked like you were close in the turn then way back straight after due to him pedaling on after, but in reality maybe it was a situation of him exiting better, being in a better position and better balanced/recovered after the turn allowing him to easily do this, whilst you were coming out a bit ragged, a little off and not quite all there making it hard for you to get on it again straight up for the next section? An extreme example might be two people following the same line into a corner, similar speed, similar line but right at the apex/end the guy at the rear hits the brakes, putting him slightly off line, slightly off balance coming out of that corner. Whilst the other guy goes on smoothly for the next corner, you are stuck regaining that bit of compusure, and in no position to pedal or attack for the next section. That's the way I could see it being if not related to fitness.
madmanmark82
Likes Dirt
here you go viv here is video of the first rock chute.
Yes your line rolling the right hand side did lead u into a straight line BUT that straight line is alot slower then hiting the rock chute with speed and taking the burms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAFx-nJ8acQ&feature=related
Yes your line rolling the right hand side did lead u into a straight line BUT that straight line is alot slower then hiting the rock chute with speed and taking the burms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAFx-nJ8acQ&feature=related
GEOFF DOOM
Likes Dirt
yer i would definately say 50 / 50 i ride with a guy who is super fit, he gets me on the flatts but i get away around the berms and technical stuff.
Viv92
Eats Squid
I actually think I was gaining on you in that corner. Even though I had to brake way before you did, the straight line is a lot faster and I would catch right up to you after that. From there on it you just got gradually further away.
Also line choice stuff, what's better, faster or smoother?
There were definitely some corners up the top (that S bend bit and a flat turn a bit later) where I was gaining time but the lines usually involved running into a few more rocks and roots.
Booost
Likes Bikes and Dirt
So we're talking about 'better' in a race sense which is ultimately, faster. So you're asking whats better (faster), faster or smoother? faster is faster!
madmanmark82
Likes Dirt
You seriusly dont no the answer to this viv?
I think you need to try some stuff out for your self instead of reading and obaying (sp). It will change, the fastest line wont allways be the smoothest line, BUT a good rider will make that line look and feel smooth. For example at illinbah, the rock garden after the long grass strech (Just before the pallet chute) you could fly into it and hit every rock in it and come out the other side But it would most likely be faster to take it alittle slower and miss 80% of the rocks because your speed would be maintained, your balance would be good and you will have a plan. Instead of hucking into it hoping for the best, you will be able to set your self up for the next section as well.
I think you need to try some stuff out for your self instead of reading and obaying (sp). It will change, the fastest line wont allways be the smoothest line, BUT a good rider will make that line look and feel smooth. For example at illinbah, the rock garden after the long grass strech (Just before the pallet chute) you could fly into it and hit every rock in it and come out the other side But it would most likely be faster to take it alittle slower and miss 80% of the rocks because your speed would be maintained, your balance would be good and you will have a plan. Instead of hucking into it hoping for the best, you will be able to set your self up for the next section as well.
Tomsy
Likes Dirt
The way I like to look at it is most of it's line choice: Distance, smoothness and cornering.
distance: Simply if you ride in a straight line you'll have a shorter distance to cover than if you are moving side to side all the time
Smoothness: The smoothest line is not usually going to be the shortest and best line for cornering but you can go faster over the smooth stuff (faster as in a higher numerical speed as in literal distance/time not necessarily fastest down a track)
Cornering: This is more like a race line, as in a car race line where you choose your angle and speed to best get round the corners. but when not on tarmac but on a downhill mtb track you take this line regardless of what's under your wheels
My riding style is I try to not brake at all and i hop over the smaller rock sections and ruts and always take the smooth lines on the straights. Then in the corners I'll take the best cornering line and plow the rough bits that occur in those lines if need be.
So when I choose lines i choose a combination of these things that best suits my style. There is no best method just what you feel comfortable with and you can only prove it's a good method by riding well in your own style.
distance: Simply if you ride in a straight line you'll have a shorter distance to cover than if you are moving side to side all the time
Smoothness: The smoothest line is not usually going to be the shortest and best line for cornering but you can go faster over the smooth stuff (faster as in a higher numerical speed as in literal distance/time not necessarily fastest down a track)
Cornering: This is more like a race line, as in a car race line where you choose your angle and speed to best get round the corners. but when not on tarmac but on a downhill mtb track you take this line regardless of what's under your wheels
My riding style is I try to not brake at all and i hop over the smaller rock sections and ruts and always take the smooth lines on the straights. Then in the corners I'll take the best cornering line and plow the rough bits that occur in those lines if need be.
So when I choose lines i choose a combination of these things that best suits my style. There is no best method just what you feel comfortable with and you can only prove it's a good method by riding well in your own style.
I say 90% skill and 10% fitness.
Being relatively new to dh scene - i class myself fitter than most of crew i ride with yet i am the slowest by miles. If you dont have the skill no amount of fitness makes you a faster rider. Once at the top level where skill levels are similar i believe fitness makes a difference.
But for hackers like myself i take a big dose of skill over fitness anyday. I get fitter from riding but skill level doesnt improve at same rate.
Being relatively new to dh scene - i class myself fitter than most of crew i ride with yet i am the slowest by miles. If you dont have the skill no amount of fitness makes you a faster rider. Once at the top level where skill levels are similar i believe fitness makes a difference.
But for hackers like myself i take a big dose of skill over fitness anyday. I get fitter from riding but skill level doesnt improve at same rate.
I think you have chosen the right line from the video just not rode it quite as quickly as your mate. This is completely constructive not trying to have a dig but if you listen carefully to that clip, you can here the difference in suspension noises. Mark's is one smooth wollow which rebounds smoothly and lets him maintain speed. Yours is seperated into a few more distincitve pinches of sound (i could be wrong and just be movement of rocks), but another take on it is how you rock back and forth twice, where mark just has the one body movement showing only one compression. Each one of these compressions will take away your momentum maing the quicker straight line, slower in reality.
smiff123
Likes Dirt
Is this me?
Think it is, I know what your talking about. I ride just kinda bouncing off the sides if the tracks getting little bits of air wherever I can 'cos im pretty much just out to have fun (turns out going fast is most fun). And as you said your more of a tech rider so you catch me up pretty quick on those bits.
In the case of viv I reckon its 50/50 but some riders are always going to be better on some tracks.
Unless your Selby then your just a god at everything.
I see aloot of people saying fitness and muscle mass counts, but no tips on improving it!
A couple of hours a week could go along way, 2-3 sessions in the gym, focusing on three simple movements- Squat/Deadlift/Military(overhead)Press
All can be done in any gym or shed, only need a 5-6' bar and some plates...
It is recommended you get a personal trainer or even a decent high school sports instructor to teach you the correct technique.
They all work multiple areas, cover your legs/back/core/upper body.
Eat well, drink lots of milk, train, ride, and report back after a month or two and let us know how much stronger you are and how much of an impact it has made on your riding....
A couple of hours a week could go along way, 2-3 sessions in the gym, focusing on three simple movements- Squat/Deadlift/Military(overhead)Press
All can be done in any gym or shed, only need a 5-6' bar and some plates...
It is recommended you get a personal trainer or even a decent high school sports instructor to teach you the correct technique.
They all work multiple areas, cover your legs/back/core/upper body.
Eat well, drink lots of milk, train, ride, and report back after a month or two and let us know how much stronger you are and how much of an impact it has made on your riding....