Flat pedal technique advice

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
For me I have seen a number of benefits & develpoed my riding since being clipped in, and am wondering if it is worth the effort & time to ditch those and then chase what seems to be the same end effect by adding pinned flats & expensive sticky shoes?
This is a good questions, that never gets the correct answer.

Riding flats develops and maintains bike control, balance and stability. Clipless encourages you to mask core skills with the fact that you are attached to the bike. Bike control/pumping/bunny hops etc are all aided when clipped in, and that makes you lazy and dampens your skills. Body positioning is also compromised as you can get away with situations being clipped in that would otherwise have you arse over tit on flats.

I agree that there are benefits to riding clipless, especially in XC style situations where pedal stroke efficiency is critical and bike control less critical.
Without going into too much detail, the whole your cheating and using poor technique in clipless pedals and need to use flats to learn ‘proper technique’ is a load of shit, this myth is perpetuated in every MTB forum and from a few self-proclaimed guru / experts who have no knowledge of motor learning. Not having a go at you JT, your a top bloke, but this is the general statement that is pasted to every time someone asks this question.

When we learn a skill we go through several stages of learning, cognitive, associative and autonomous stages, this is the Fitts and Posner model still the dominate theory in motor learning. To put this into the context on my rant;

The cognitive stage (beginner) dictates that every single time you want to unclip from your pedals you must consciously think to do the movement, the one time (or ten) you forget to release you fall over sideways to the laughter of riding companions.

The Associative stage (intermediate) you have the basic motor pattern worked out at a reasonable level – ie, you can reliably unclip when needed. But you are still refining your technique towards the expert level, as in a steep climb with sudden loss of traction / bike stalling may still result in a fall from not unclipping fast enough.

The autonomous stage (expert) you can unclip without though in any circumstance and you don’t need to think about it, it just occurs when it needs to happen. Many flat riders who dismiss clipless pedals have never gotten to this stage from my observations; most don’t get out of the cognitive stage.

Then we have the principles of general learning and specific learning, general learning is simply learning to ride a bike with flat pedals – I’d consider this to be the most basic pedal. Or specific learning, as in learning to use clipless pedals a specialised piece of equipment. When learning a skill in a general sense, transfer of that skill from a general environment to a specific environment is not 100% or even close, then take into account that both flat and clipless pedals are used in differing ways from a technique point of view to achieve the same goal and the transfer of skill from flats to clipless becomes ever lower. The principle of motor learning requires an individual who want to reach the autonomous stage and therefore develop expertise to train specifically on the equipment that that want to become an expert using.

Telling someone to practice a skill with equipment different to what they are going to use on the trail goes against 100 years of motor learning research and also the techniques that are employed in elite sport that the average punter will never see. Specificity is very, very important if you want to become good at something - look at the WC bike setup, that measures to the mm, at exact angle for brake levers and the like. Using the benefits of clipless pedals to help you bunny hop is not cheating or poor technique, using your pedal in the most efficient manner possible, even if that is pulling up with your feet, is excellent technique. Anyone who says differently…

Practice your skills with the pedal you’re going to be using, if you swap and change regularly for riding, practice with both, but its detrimental to practice with one if you’re going to ride on the other, the skill won’t transfer effectively and you could have spent that same time developing greater expertise with your preferred pedal.
 

SF Trailboy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
So MWI if I can learn to bunny hop with flats easily and then return to clips and use the same technique and do it just as easily without relying on the need to be clipped in, have I not developed a better skill by riding the flats and then reaping the associated benefits of being clipped in as well?

Both flats and clips have benefits.

I think that people who learn and combine the 2 (flat pedal riding & clips) can be better riders for it by having learnt the best of both worlds....
 

ChrisJC

Likes Bikes and Dirt
As with Johnny, I can't say that is necessary. I can't see the rationale behind that idea.

I'll also push the "elbows out, knees bent" mantra. YOU are the suspension for a bike, ride a bit "softer" with the flats and think you are not just ploughing through rough sections.
My thought process behind dropping the saddle with flats is that your foot tends to be further forward and flatter or more heel down than road/xc position with clips. At the bottom of stroke your leg would be more extended with flats given the same seat height. Trial and error I guess. I tend to know what height feels right and adjust accordingly.
 
body position and pedal weighting

Some is body position too. Search some youtube videos to help.
Heels down for braking and descending as you have discovered. Feet wedge for lots of other times incl. climbing (heal down leading foot, toe down trailing). For steep climbs, think of toes 'clawing' the pedal on the upstroke - practice some rear wheel 'lifts' on flat ground to see what I mean, like trying to pop the back wheel up over an imaginary kerb. Pedalling smoothly In circles will help you get up loose ascents.

To get your body position better, try getting someone to hold your bike balanced and then stand on it. Get down into a normal fast (sort of aggressive) position over the bike, now stand on your feet, with hands light on the bars, elbows out and weight centred...now feel how far forward you actually need to be to be balanced on your feet. Most of us still have our weight too far back.

Let me know what you find...I bet you need to move your head and shoulders forwards a lot. Now you have found your weight centred position and the weight evenly on your feet, you'll begin to not lose your feet climbing or descending...it feels awkward at first but you'll understand pretty quickly that to have balanced weight on your feet, requires you to maintain that shift in body position. Good luck - hang in there, it's worth it.
+1
This was definitely true when I transitioned to flats, the first time I launched off the local downhill water bars my feet were miles off the pedals (super scary). being clipped in masked my terrible body position and technique. Take it easy and be persistent, after a while you will feel your feet are glued to the pedals and it all just happens without any conscious thought.
 

JTmofo

XC Enthusiast
This is a good questions, that never gets the correct answer.



Without going into too much detail, the whole your cheating and using poor technique in clipless pedals and need to use flats to learn ‘proper technique’ is a load of shit, this myth is perpetuated in every MTB forum and from a few self-proclaimed guru / experts who have no knowledge of motor learning. Not having a go at you JT, your a top bloke, but this is the general statement that is pasted to every time someone asks this question.

When we learn a skill we go through several stages of learning, cognitive, associative and autonomous stages, this is the Fitts and Posner model still the dominate theory in motor learning. To put this into the context on my rant;

The cognitive stage (beginner) dictates that every single time you want to unclip from your pedals you must consciously think to do the movement, the one time (or ten) you forget to release you fall over sideways to the laughter of riding companions.

The Associative stage (intermediate) you have the basic motor pattern worked out at a reasonable level – ie, you can reliably unclip when needed. But you are still refining your technique towards the expert level, as in a steep climb with sudden loss of traction / bike stalling may still result in a fall from not unclipping fast enough.

The autonomous stage (expert) you can unclip without though in any circumstance and you don’t need to think about it, it just occurs when it needs to happen. Many flat riders who dismiss clipless pedals have never gotten to this stage from my observations; most don’t get out of the cognitive stage.

Then we have the principles of general learning and specific learning, general learning is simply learning to ride a bike with flat pedals – I’d consider this to be the most basic pedal. Or specific learning, as in learning to use clipless pedals a specialised piece of equipment. When learning a skill in a general sense, transfer of that skill from a general environment to a specific environment is not 100% or even close, then take into account that both flat and clipless pedals are used in differing ways from a technique point of view to achieve the same goal and the transfer of skill from flats to clipless becomes ever lower. The principle of motor learning requires an individual who want to reach the autonomous stage and therefore develop expertise to train specifically on the equipment that that want to become an expert using.

Telling someone to practice a skill with equipment different to what they are going to use on the trail goes against 100 years of motor learning research and also the techniques that are employed in elite sport that the average punter will never see. Specificity is very, very important if you want to become good at something - look at the WC bike setup, that measures to the mm, at exact angle for brake levers and the like. Using the benefits of clipless pedals to help you bunny hop is not cheating or poor technique, using your pedal in the most efficient manner possible, even if that is pulling up with your feet, is excellent technique. Anyone who says differently…

Practice your skills with the pedal you’re going to be using, if you swap and change regularly for riding, practice with both, but its detrimental to practice with one if you’re going to ride on the other, the skill won’t transfer effectively and you could have spent that same time developing greater expertise with your preferred pedal.
I take it you ride clipless so. :baby:
 

mooboyj

Likes Dirt
I came from BMX to MTB, so had to learn the other way. I have actually moved away from clipless on my three MTBs and only use them on my roadie.

Don't be afraid to change the position of your feet on the pedals. I move my feet forwards or backwards depending on whether I am climbing or descending. I also point my feet outwards a little when working the pump track.

Don't be afraid to move your body around a lot. You are no longer attached to the bike, use different feet positions to aid in moving extra weight forwards or backwards.

A good exercise is learning to lift the back wheel. It is part of the American bunnyhop, and may aid in giving you "feel" for the pedals and feet position. Literally just ride along, point you toes to the ground and get the back wheel off the ground.

Make sure you have good quality shoes. Great shoes plus ordinary pedals is always going to beat ordinary shoes and great pedals.

Relax and loosen up, you aren't clipped in, play around a bit :) Don't over think it when you are on the trails. Try and learn a few feet position things off the trails and they will then become natural on the trails.

As for the pros and cons, only you can decide that :)
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
So MWI if I can learn to bunny hop with flats easily and then return to clips and use the same technique and do it just as easily without relying on the need to be clipped in, have I not developed a better skill by riding the flats and then reaping the associated benefits of being clipped in as well?

Both flats and clips have benefits.

I think that people who learn and combine the 2 (flat pedal riding & clips) can be better riders for it by having learnt the best of both worlds....
I ride both pedal types, but I don't use the same technique for both, clipless pedal technique has an inherent advantage of your feet being stuck to the pedals, why not maximise this? You still need to be doing a bunnyhop, not just a leg lift, but a proper bunnyhop can be taught using clipless pedals, learning this is not exclusive to flats which every person seems to think.

If you swap back and forth all the time you'll be autonomous in both techniques, but for riders who are only going to ride clipless or flats, it makes little sense to try and learn with a different tool that your going to use for your riding. Spend that time perfecting what you are going to be using.

I take it you ride clipless so. :baby:
I use both, I prefer flats for jumping, trials and unicycles.
 

4dabush

Likes Dirt
I concentrated on this during my ride today, and it made so much difference in cornering it was ridiculous.
Now try to get your body position right and it will blow you away how much extra grip you will find through the bike. I have no question MWI is correct in learning, however, I still believe learning correct technique, regardless of pedal, is critical. Like all sports, learning the wrong way takes twice as long to unlearn and learn correct technique. IMO flats help highlight poor technique, which when corrected will make most a better rider on flats or clips.

As mentioned, try and get someone to support your bike, elbows out, knees bent, hands light on the bars, light like really light - barely a finger and thumb light. NOW find your balance on your feet...now this is the position you need to get into more often when riding... When descending, riding quick through twists and turns and pressing on a bit. It's where you move from and forwards when climbing...its where you shift back and lower from when descending steep stuff...it's your "go to" position.
 

ChrisJC

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Now try to get your body position right and it will blow you away how much extra grip you will find through the bike. I have no question MWI is correct in learning, however, I still believe learning correct technique, regardless of pedal, is critical. Like all sports, learning the wrong way takes twice as long to unlearn and learn correct technique. IMO flats help highlight poor technique, which when corrected will make most a better rider on flats or clips.

As mentioned, try and get someone to support your bike, elbows out, knees bent, hands light on the bars, light like really light - barely a finger and thumb light. NOW find your balance on your feet...now this is the position you need to get into more often when riding... When descending, riding quick through twists and turns and pressing on a bit. It's where you move from and forwards when climbing...its where you shift back and lower from when descending steep stuff...it's your "go to" position.
thanks for the tips. Re balanced position, do you have any links to pics or videos? Pretty sure I get the idea but it would nice to see some examples. Thanks C
 

scblack

Leucocholic
thanks for the tips. Re balanced position, do you have any links to pics or videos? Pretty sure I get the idea but it would nice to see some examples. Thanks C
Look for stuff on the "attack position" which I've found from Brian Lopes book years ago.
 

ChrisJC

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Thanks everyone for your advice. Those links are great reading! I used my flats again through the week on one of my usual rides and I only lost my footing a few times but without my foot losing total contact with the pedal. Quite good fun!
 

Nmag

Likes Dirt
The soles of my 5-10's have two rows of imprints. For downhill and rough stuff my foot is more centred.

Going up a steep hill I move my feet back a little on the pedals, and think about tyre traction and breathing.

I use adjustable seat post.
 

Flow-Rider

Burner
It's not until you start riding risky technical stuff that if you only know how to lift with your clips, will result in problems. Best to learn how to let your bike lift and not always pull it up with your clips.
This bloke knows his stuff.

[video=youtube;9Y1wErP4Rb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1wErP4Rb4[/video]
 

Cave001

Likes Bikes
Not meaning to hijack a thread but i don't wanna start another one just for a quick question. in the first video "flow-rider" just posted, the guy talked about not pulling to manual and jump, is it alright to pull abit just to get the movement happening? Or just all hips and weight transfer?
 
Last edited:

Flow-Rider

Burner
Not meaning to hijack a thread but i don't wanna start another one just for a quick question. in the first video "flow-rider" just posted, the guy talked about not pulling to manual and jump, is it alright to pull abit just to get the movement happening? Or just all hips and weight transfer?
I'm not an expert but you should pop off the lip with your arms almost totally locked out straight, if you pull up it can send you off to the side of the jump and you can get more height in your bunnyhop if you start with a manual. Your arms locking out straight as you roll your weight back to the rear wheel, with a small preload pop should automatically pull the front wheel up real easy. Not the easiest skill to learn overnight, if you have been pulling up to wheelstand your bike for most of your life.
 
Last edited:

richie_gt

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Not meaning to hijack a thread but i don't wanna start another one just for a quick question. in the first video "flow-rider" just posted, the guy talked about not pulling to manual and jump, is it alright to pull abit just to get the movement happening? Or just all hips and weight transfer?
Yes to manual you do have to pull up a bit, but also use your hips to transfer the weight. Practice this technique on a flat piece of road, do it in small increments and you'll get the hang of it. Cover the rear brake and use it to stop going over the back, you'll eventually get the modulation of the brake right so you can use it to balance.

I'm not an expert but you should pop of the lip with your arms almost totally locked out straight, if you pull up it can send you off to the side of the jump and you can get more height in your bunnyhop if you start with a manual. Your arms locking out straight as you roll your weight back to the rear wheel, with a small preload pop should automatically pull the front wheel up real easy. Not the easiest skill to learn overnight, if you have been pulling up to wheelstand your bike for most of your life.
Sorry I disagree with 'arms almost totally locked out' - I tend to advise people to ride in the 'attack position', ride neutral and you give yourself a fair degree of movement should things go wrong in the air! If your arms are locked out and you land front first get ready to go OTB! I notice that newbies tend to pull the bike up when they jump, mostly because they are going too slow.

I can only speak for myself but I find I'm most comfortable when I'm in the attack position, I have plenty of movement in my arms and legs, and can transfer my weight easily - keeping it on topic I also ride flats! :p
 
Top