Gods agin it, im agin it....

[Plow King]

"These spastics are the taliban of the Western world"

Plow King 2012

 

[Bermshot]

Wondering why the Mod Gods haven't shut this thread down yet. Maybe their on smoko!:very_drunk:
Or everyone is being civil as an adult should be when conversing upon such a topic and the Mods have said "fuck this is boring, let's have smoko!".

On Neetchee, I'd be carefull on advocating his writings, you may be classed as a antisemetic. But the juxtaposition to his truth was he was a ardent Christian, so again the great researches of faith have their own failings, or to combat such evil a crutch of some sort is imperative for the psych to survive so one can live "normally".

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Wondering why the Mod Gods haven't shut this thread down yet. Maybe their on smoko!:very_drunk:
Or everyone is being civil as an adult should be when conversing upon such a topic and the Mods have said "fuck this is boring, let's have smoko!".

Naw, everyone is being civil and rationale, no one as far as i can tell is trolling or bagging religion more than what the clips that have been linked need to be.

I always thought I might start my own cult, we would be logic based, but then it would be illogical to start a cult... that's the end of that.

I am not religious, I was brought up in an atheist household and was taught to respect all people regardless of color or belief and to judge people on their merits and actions - that has worked well for me and that's what my children are going to be taught.

 

[Spike-X]

Gay couples having/adopting kids? If it is Nature that is involved here, DNA or what have you then it stands that it is impossible for gay couples to reproduce. Now I understand that it is not a decision to be gay but it does not alter the fact that a gay couple can not reproduce without assistance from the opposite sex, ie woman having babies for a gay male couple using one of the partners sperm or a lesbian couple injecting sperm, or even copulating with the desired progenator until the desired effect is achieved. I admit that it's it's hard for me to get my head around this issue. is there not at the least some sort hypocrisy here? Is it not going against Nature if Nature intended same sex relations?

You're speaking as if Nature was possessed of some kind of consciousness or awareness, acting with deliberate intent. I've yet to see any evidence of that.

Regarding adoption, I think, is a different scenario. There is no doubt that a loving gay couple can and do raise children in a happy environment when that child was looking at an alternative of say, a life of homelessness in Africa or where have you. And in that regard is it not a selfish act if a couple "self" reproduce when there are those that NEED a loving home?

You could say that of any heterosexual couple who choose biological reproduction over adoption.

 

[Arete]

Gay couples having/adopting kids? If it is Nature that is involved here

Homosexuality is observed in over 500 species of animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Homosexual relationships in social and kin group animals - particularly those with communal parenting, has shown to benefit populations through mechanisms of kin selection and inclusive fitness models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ality-from-an-evolutionary-point-of-view.aspx

In short - the existence of homosexual individuals and behavior is totally natural and makes evolutionary sense.

 

[Spike-X]

Homosexuality is observed in over 500 species of animals.

Homophobia, however, is observed in only one. So who are the ones being unnatural?

Just to clarify, I'm not for a minute suggesting that Bermshot was expressing any kind of homophobia. I understand he was just thinking out loud, as it were.

 

[Arete]

Just to clarify, I'm not for a minute suggesting that Bermshot was expressing any kind of homophobia. I understand he was just thinking out loud, as it were.

That's fine - I guess what I was pointing out is that the role of homosexual individuals in child rearing is widespread in nature - and if you apply an inclusive fitness model to the inheritance of kin/population members with shared allelic diversity, it makes evolutionary sense also.

The article I posted in my previous post discusses a study in Samoa, where homosexuality in males has a long history of acceptance and looks at the care given by heterosexual males, women and homosexual males to children. Homosexual men were shown to provide significantly more care to peripherally related children (nieces, nephews, cousins, etc) than hetero men or women. As these children are carrying a component of the homosexual males genes, and the fact that an additional caregiver - such as a homosexual male - can maximise offspring survival, having/being a homosexual man in such a situation confers a population/familial level of evolutionary success.

So I guess it's a counter to the common notion that homosexual individuals raising children is unnatural - as there are many examples of them doing just that in nature.

 

[Bermshot]

Homosexuality is observed in over 500 species of animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Homosexual relationships in social and kin group animals - particularly those with communal parenting, has shown to benefit populations through mechanisms of kin selection and inclusive fitness models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ality-from-an-evolutionary-point-of-view.aspx

In short - the existence of homosexual individuals and behavior is totally natural and makes evolutionary sense.

IE: Squirt Bottle? That makes?.....Not human, and dont try to fight me on it because I already have you down pat. But charge as you will so everyone can see where the mistake is.

 

[Arete]

IE: Squirt Bottle? That makes?.....Not human, and dont try to fight me on it because I already have you down pat. But charge as you will so everyone can see where the mistake is.

Huh? The article I linked to and discussed in post #47 was a study conducted on human populations to investigate the potential increase in inclusive fitness in a human population attributable to the presence of homosexual males... I'm not attempting to e-fight here, you asked a broad general question as to the "naturalness" of homosexuals being parents.

Nature provides us with numerous examples of nominally "homosexual" individuals engaging in the rearing of offspring, both in other species and our own. When we apply evolutionary models and evolutionary theory to these scenarios, they fit within the bounds of having positive net effects on evolutionary fitness. I was trying to provide both some evidence and some commentary in an effort to address the broad general question you posed.

When it comes down to it, there's evidence for homosexual individuals positively impacting the success of populations of socially interacting organisms which co-operatively raise young - and when objectively evaluating the broad 'naturalness' of homosexuality the evidence is pretty strong that it is indeed natural and more than likely has been an element of human societies since their inception - especially given the extremely high prevalence of homosexuality in our nearest relatives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Bonobo_and_other_apes

Whether or not a person agrees with the ethics of homosexual parents or not is an aside from the "naturalness" of it to which each person is entitled an opinion. Infanticide is a pretty natural phenomenon in socially organized mammalian societies too - http://www.citrona.com/hrdy/documents/Hrdy1979InfanticideAnimals.pdf the naturalness of it or otherwise doesn't have much of a bearing on whether it's ethical. Even if homosexuality was unnatural it shouldn't weigh in to the debate - those opposing gay parenting should show is the documented negative impacts caused by it or gtfo.

 

[Bermshot]

Sorry folkes, by the time I put up the last post I was well off-planet and that isn't appropriate in a discussion like this.

+ I also wanted state yesti when I had more clarity is that i think social expectation should also not be used here either, it of course factors in and does impact as any familial situation will but on the grounds that society is far from perfect this excuse (if I can call it that) must be discarded.

Wow! That wiki page on animal behaviour was a trip. Not the infanticide one. I had to LOL about the gut worms! "hey homophobic pastor! Your gut worms are having gay sex inside you!" hahaha.

Ok, I have gone over some of the material and it appears that even to the microbial level Nature intended ( and I can't help but think of Nature as a sort of driving force) or promotes at the least interconectedness so that all parts are aware of all the other parts, (alilial diversity and such is a tad out of my pay grade) a sort of game so we understand. But once we understand,' here we go', does it not stand to reason that as a species we move beyond the physical ie 'sex for pleasure' to a higher order?.......enter religion/philosophy and here be my impasse.

 

[Dozer]

Wondering why the Mod Gods haven't shut this thread down yet. Maybe their on smoko!:very_drunk:
Or everyone is being civil as an adult should be when conversing upon such a topic and the Mods have said "fuck this is boring, let's have smoko!".

We're watching. As long as it stays clean and we skip the gay bashing and the like I'm sure we can all converse like adults. Once the kids arrive and "teh fagz r gaybo" crowd arrive we'll send them packing and delete the thread.
The population is increasing therefore the amount of hetro and gay people will increase (like, der). I guess it will be an alarming thing that gay people become more common and those who haven't ever had gay people around them will always wince at it and bag the shit out of them purely because they don't understand. In that case it may be worthwhile to mind your own business and not create a drama over something you ain't got any idea of. Admittedly, I was in that boat where I thought cruel things about gay people but never went on a campaign of bashing them. My views on the situation changed real fast when we built out house and spent a lot of time with the girls who built next door who are a long term couple. They're great! Their friends are great, their parents are great, they are just great! They don't prance around with a placard stating that they are gay and making sure everyone knows about it, they live everyday lives just like you and me. Then they did something that made me question the whole gay thing.................. One of the girls "fell pregnant". I won't go into the nitty gritty but it involved a dude and a girl getting on the good foot and doing the bad thing. To me, that totally and utterly contradicted the whole gay thing and I was worried straight up about the child's upbringing. Anyway, the pregnancy went well, the little girl was born healthy and happy and the girls love the little darling like nothing else. My faith in two people of any gender being able to love a child and treat it with utmost care was totally restored and they are a beautiful family that I am proud to have as my favorite neighbors. This experience has taught me some big things and I'm a better person for it simply because I understand it and embrace their friendship. I've met stacks of hot birds that visit them who have same sex partners and man, the conversations are hilarious and never boring! They are a fun bunch to be around. As for the little girl who is now six months old, she is a total darling and has an infectious smile that melts you. Unfortunately for the little girl, I am the closest male in her life so the content of swear words to come out of that girls mouth will be horrendous! I'll get that trick out of the way before I have my own kids.

 

[Nautonier]

This is turning into a really interesting thread, I hope people respect the content enough to let it continue rather than pissing on all over it.

As Dozer points out as our society is expanding and evolving traditional notions of 'parenting' are changing and we're starting to see other ways of approaching parenthood. A female friend I work with is gay and has an 8 year old daughter who is one the the happiest, most well-adjusted kids I've met. She has 2 dads (who are a gay couple) and spends half her week with mum and the other half with the dads. This arrangement works out extremely well for all concerned and shows that being gay in no way excludes men or woman from being parents - an issue which religious fanatics seem to think will result in the extinction of our species once we all get taken over by the gay disease and stop breeding.

It's probably been mentioned already, but of the worst examples of this kind of conservatism is portrayed on the Louis Thereaux "God Hates Fags" episode. To have young kids wielding placards with gay-bashing slogans in public is so many shades of wrong.

 

[Bermshot]

Cheers Doze, with my head pounding trying to focus on alille diversity helped very little but your post did, it put a smile on my face and a spark in my day, so I guess at the end of it all that is what it is all about.

 

[taitt]

Out of curiousity, would children brought up by a same-sex couple be more likely to be gay themself? Or do we assume that environment and heredity have no effect on personality?

Any psychologists up in here?

 

[LQQK]

That's fine - I guess what I was pointing out is that the role of homosexual individuals in child rearing is widespread in nature - and if you apply an inclusive fitness model to the inheritance of kin/population members with shared allelic diversity, it makes evolutionary sense also.

(snip)

So I guess it's a counter to the common notion that homosexual individuals raising children is unnatural - as there are many examples of them doing just that in nature.

… or it just reinforces the saying “It Takes a Village to Raise a Child”.

 

[Trickymac]

We're watching. As long as it stays clean and we skip the gay bashing and the like I'm sure we can all converse like adults. Once the kids arrive and "teh fagz r gaybo" crowd arrive we'll send them packing and delete the thread.
The population is increasing therefore the amount of hetro and gay people will increase (like, der). I guess it will be an alarming thing that gay people become more common and those who haven't ever had gay people around them will always wince at it and bag the shit out of them purely because they don't understand. In that case it may be worthwhile to mind your own business and not create a drama over something you ain't got any idea of. Admittedly, I was in that boat where I thought cruel things about gay people but never went on a campaign of bashing them. My views on the situation changed real fast when we built out house and spent a lot of time with the girls who built next door who are a long term couple. They're great! Their friends are great, their parents are great, they are just great! They don't prance around with a placard stating that they are gay and making sure everyone knows about it, they live everyday lives just like you and me. Then they did something that made me question the whole gay thing.................. One of the girls "fell pregnant". I won't go into the nitty gritty but it involved a dude and a girl getting on the good foot and doing the bad thing. To me, that totally and utterly contradicted the whole gay thing and I was worried straight up about the child's upbringing. Anyway, the pregnancy went well, the little girl was born healthy and happy and the girls love the little darling like nothing else. My faith in two people of any gender being able to love a child and treat it with utmost care was totally restored and they are a beautiful family that I am proud to have as my favorite neighbors. This experience has taught me some big things and I'm a better person for it simply because I understand it and embrace their friendship. I've met stacks of hot birds that visit them who have same sex partners and man, the conversations are hilarious and never boring! They are a fun bunch to be around. As for the little girl who is now six months old, she is a total darling and has an infectious smile that melts you. Unfortunately for the little girl, I am the closest male in her life so the content of swear words to come out of that girls mouth will be horrendous! I'll get that trick out of the way before I have my own kids.

you are a good man dozer

 

[Nautonier]

Out of curiousity, would children brought up by a same-sex couple be more likely to be gay themself? Or do we assume that environment and heredity have no effect on personality?

Any psychologists up in here?

I'm not a psychologist, but I would have thought it obvious that having gay parents would make no difference as to whether or not a child is gay. Only thing that would change is that if the child was gay, he/she would be less likely to hide the fact.

 

[Norco Maniac]

Out of curiousity, would children brought up by a same-sex couple be more likely to be gay themself? Or do we assume that environment and heredity have no effect on personality?

Any psychologists up in here?

good question. i'm not a pyschologist but i will give you some personal observations:

a single mum friend who remained single and celibate by choice has a young adult daughter who is gay. there were, however, plenty of positive male role models in her life and a wide diversity of family friends.

my daughters have numerous gay friends who come from hetero families, two of those boys i have known from preschool age, and it was always obvious to me that they would "come out" as gay when they were older. one had a gay uncle who didn't have much to do with the family (their choice, not his) another of the boys has three straight brothers. one of the girls is adopted, her birth mother was gay. another of the girls was married, had a child, and left him for a woman. i come from a hetero family but i'm bisexual, although i'm in a committed relationship with a man and was married with children beforehand. my sisters are hetero and homophobic.

i don't think nurture has as much to do with it as nature, although being raised in a culture of acceptance certainly makes it easier to be honest about your orientation. one of the boys i mentioned earlier was forced into counselling by his parents when he told them, they thought he would change - and he was the one with the gay uncle.

 

[Bermshot]

Damn you lot, I made peace with the topic but you have me thinking again! If we remove sex from the equation then I guess it's a matter of preferred close companionship?

 

[rabatt]

Damn you lot, I made peace with the topic but you have me thinking again! If we remove sex from the equation then I guess it's a matter of preferred close companionship?

'If it weren't for the sex I'd be gay any day'