Helmets - are you really covered?

mars mtb

Likes Dirt
Mars- that comment on the Chilli dogs cracks me up..still laughing!

Not sure about the insurance stuff on the threat. Doenst insurance mean that if you injure someone else it will cover their costs and not your costs. How does the helmet relate to this unless you have some mega-flash policy that covers every possibility?
Gotta admit I did not think of the insurance for others nor have I heard it being discussed as it relates to helmet usage, ie. public liability etc, but I reckon that may be another discussion again. I've always thought of and considered the insurance thing as it relates to wearing stds approved helmets etc was for personal injury and personal safety.

Re chilli dogs I can't eat them anymore as much as I may love them, they are now beyond me I am not tough enough, I'm sweating just thinking of eating one now :fear:
 

jonny the boy

Likes Dirt
i bought a THE one carbon from CRC, while it doesnt have an aus standard sticker on it, well known brands are often produced at a level that satisfies most countrys standards, also these are sold in ausralia so thats my argument if it comes around.
 

SuperSix

Likes Dirt
I reckon it's all BS!

Take this scenario:

Rider buys a Au$180 helmet from CRC, locally available for Au$370.
Rider goes on a bike safari (let's say NZ) and gets into a nasty accident involving his cranium.
Does no sticker no insurance work in this scenario?

Who's making money where? How?
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Just btw, this subject caused me to do a little more reading on the effectiveness of helmets, a few points come out of that.

Good brands that are trying to reduce brain injury are specialized s works helmets, kali, and Scott, by using multiple density foams. As it happens the most popular helmets for XC use are the lightest helmets with the most ventilation (eg giro and met are popular but still use el cheapo std EPS). In order to achieve that end, the manufacturers use a dense and brittle EPS that will still pass the standards test without breaking - ie the standards and the market are demanding less safe helmets not moreso.

Secondly, in the other threads about helmets, people post about their broken helmet and how it saved their life or whatever - however for it to work, the helmet needs to crush not crack - a cracked open helmet is one that didnt work.

personally, if you are concerned about serious head injury, then look for the Kali and Scott helmets that use an Australian invention called conehead technology - this is very new technology, that was invented because helmets ae so damn ineffective at actually doing what they are purported to do.

Oh, and a last point - I often hear people say "cheap head, cheap helmet" or something to that effect - invariably they know almost nothing of the subject apart from what they read in a manufacturers brochure, and often seem to work in a bike shop - same people who also think you always get what you pay for.
 

harmonix1234

Eats Squid
I did a personal loan (when I worked at the bank) for the lady who is the head tester (in fact she is the only tester) at the Rosebank facility in Victoria.

They are the aussie test facility that determine whether it meets standard or not. If she says 'NO', the helmet dosn't make it on our shelves.

She is personally responsible for the testing of every helmet for sale in Aus from Kmart to Bike shops.

I won't go in depth, but we had a long chat about it and she said a few interesting things.

She described all of the tests that they go through and I can tell you that they are pretty harsh tests.
The tests they do are far more stringent and tough than overseas tests.
The tests they do push the helmets way past what even the aussie standards are and the best money dosn't buy you the best (protection) helmet.

For example, the best performing (not full face) helmet that showed the greatest resistance to blunt impact force/trauma (a square edged metal block mounted on a hydraulic arm ramming into it repeatedly until it crumbles) was made by mongoose and goes for about $30 at Big W.
However, you don't push much truck grill with your head at 80kph, and they all have their limits.

She gave me one bit of info and that was every helmet that you buy off a shelf in Oz, despite the retail outlet well exceed the Aussie standards.
She put her name to it every day.

We have the best helmets in the world on our shelves.
 

SuperSix

Likes Dirt
...
personally, if you are concerned about serious head injury, then look for the Kali and Scott helmets that use an Australian invention called conehead technology - this is very new technology, that was invented because helmets ae so damn ineffective at actually doing what they are purported to do.
Scott Bike Helmets HERE.

Kali Bike Helmets HERE.

I'd say, cone head really works! Featured in pinkbike random products


My erection goes here
 

stinky1138

Likes Dirt
I did a personal loan (when I worked at the bank) for the lady who is the head tester (in fact she is the only tester) at the Rosebank facility in Victoria.

They are the aussie test facility that determine whether it meets standard or not. If she says 'NO', the helmet dosn't make it on our shelves.

She is personally responsible for the testing of every helmet for sale in Aus from Kmart to Bike shops.

I won't go in depth, but we had a long chat about it and she said a few interesting things.

She described all of the tests that they go through and I can tell you that they are pretty harsh tests.
The tests they do are far more stringent and tough than overseas tests.
The tests they do push the helmets way past what even the aussie standards are and the best money dosn't buy you the best (protection) helmet.

For example, the best performing (not full face) helmet that showed the greatest resistance to blunt impact force/trauma (a square edged metal block mounted on a hydraulic arm ramming into it repeatedly until it crumbles) was made by mongoose and goes for about $30 at Big W.
However, you don't push much truck grill with your head at 80kph, and they all have their limits.

She gave me one bit of info and that was every helmet that you buy off a shelf in Oz, despite the retail outlet well exceed the Aussie standards.
She put her name to it every day.

We have the best helmets in the world on our shelves.
How does she know for certain ? How can anyone working here know 100% for fact that something done overseas is the same, different, better, worse, unless they have worked in the industry in every place in the world ?
A helmet still won't prevent brain injury 100% of the time anyway. A sticker still has the potential to eat away at the foam lining in a helmet too, sticker dependent. How safe is that ?
 

ChopStir

Squid
I believe the helmets sold here are the same as overseas, but it all boils down to insurance and compinsation claims.

If you are hit by a car, you could be denied a payout for compinsation because your helmet was not Australian Approved. Which will also mean having to pay for your own medical bills.

I bought my last helmet for $95 from my LBS, it retails at $200. He droped the price for me to try and match an online retailer I had quoted.

Now I have the peace of mind knowing I have an Australian approved helmet and only payed half the Australian retail cost.
 

Rasatouche

Likes Bikes
I've bought helmets from overseas and locally aswell, had a $30 avanti helmet from a LBS that 'met AU' standards and cracked from a small fall (like maybe 1m or less onto back & head, big crack in the back of it) and an overseas protec helmet that didn't 'meet AU' standards but saved me multiple times without breaking, whacking my head hard on a vert ramp when i used to blade, so go figure.

As for all the 'insurance' stuff, i'd like to know what insurance companies just throw in cover for what is considered an 'extreme' sport :p. I mean you need an expensive custom policy just to cover your bike the second you take it out of your garage, let alone off road. Then your 3rd party is usually covered with your club membership. As for medical, if you have private health insurance that will cover your hospital stay regardless of how you get there and if you don't, there's always that other thing called the public healthcare system. The only thing left is the ambulance, Sure you may have to pay the ambulance bill, but then again if you're doing a sport where you go out of the way to wear things like knee pads and helmets, then you should also spend the huge sum of $37.50 annually in vic anyway to cover that rather than risking a huge bill should you end up wrecking yourself. And should you have income & life insurance, you'll find that a large majority of those policies cover 'just about' everything. Not to mention I'd like to see the insurance company that is bold enough to risk the potential brand damage for disputing a claim for someone who wore a helmet, even if it was on the road, which to me reads like 'On Today Tonight, The insurance company that denied the claim of a cyclist who wore a helmet". Besides, with any luck our 'compulsory' helmet laws will get scrapped soon enough, seeing as obesity & congestion are going to only get worse, someone is eventually going to make the smart decision to stop mandatory helmets to help kick-start a bike share scheme. Once that happens this whole thing will be moot.

Now this is all IMO, but I would think that provided you are wearing a helmet, one that may not meet standards here but does overseas, you will be less likely to wreck yourself to the point of needing insurance or hospitalization in the first place. I mean if the difference in cost from buying overseas means using a full face helmet instead of a dirt lid for example, should you fall off you now have more protection than if you weren't wearing a full face which you may not have been able to afford with the sometimes insane or sometimes totally reasonable LBS mark-up. The other thing is if you can get the helmet cheaper, that means when you do break it, crack it, whatever, you can treat it for the product that it is, a throwaway consumable and buy another one rather than ride around with a cracked helmet which would be something that an insurance company would be more likely to deny a claim on IMO. I mean a 661 comp of CRC is like $85, but my LBS expects me to pay $160 for one. I can get two helmets imported and delivered for $10 more than buying one locally.

Personally this whole thing is just desperate scaremongering, under the guise of 'protecting AU jobs', which is more like 'protect our outdated business models and insane mark-ups'. Last time I checked we're a capitalist country, and if you can't compete you die off, plain and simple. If i can get the same exact product, and have it get sent to the UK, packaged up, then mailed halfway around the world to my door for almost half the price of what my LBS can do, then my LBS doesn't deserve my business. They can whine and complain and blame the distributor, but they're not doing their duty as merchants, as business owners to earn my business. I would happily pay 10% more to get it today from a LBS as opposed to waiting 2 weeks for the courier who knows me by name now to deliver my CRC boxes, pretty much everyone I know who rides would, and with that little difference, the shops could grey import themselves, make more money, and with that 10% difference you could cover the freight back to wherever to handle what few warranty claims happen. If enough LBS's did this and stopped being dependent on their distributors, you would see the distributor's become very reasonable & competitive with their pricing very quickly. After all, the LBS only exists to serve me, the consumer, I have no 'duty' to keep them in business, they have the duty to win my business or flounder. Not to mention that the distributors could also lobby to get the standards changed so that they don't have to be smashing helmets from every single batch, which would lower their costs and allow then to compete with say CRC, but instead they put their energy and funds into scary advertising where they are using fear to intimidate me as a consumer, and then they expect me to support this behaviour with my wallet? Just no.
 

cleeshoy

Eats Squid
How does she know for certain ? How can anyone working here know 100% for fact that something done overseas is the same, different, better, worse, unless they have worked in the industry in every place in the world ?
Not sure about other countries standards, but personally I would prefer to wear a helmet approved by Standards Australia then one approved by the Democratic Republic of Congo

A helmet still won't prevent brain injury 100% of the time anyway.
Nothing is certain but if I was involved in a crash, I would prefer to be wearing a helmet then none at all. There's a fine line between walking away with a headache and being in hospital bed for a few months. Wearing a helmet is not exactly a stressful or difficult activity - very little effort to reduce the risk of a sore head (or worse)

A sticker still has the potential to eat away at the foam lining in a helmet too, sticker dependent. How safe is that ?
*sigh*
 

Turner_rider

Likes Bikes and Dirt
How can anyone working here know 100% for fact that something done overseas is the same, different, better, worse, unless they have worked in the industry in every place in the world ?
If you are an expert in any given field part of that is being up to date with what is happening around the world in your given field. Testing is a science and testing techniques for repeatable tests have to be well documented and critiqued by your peers otherwise there is no point doing the tests.

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I’d love to see a rating of each helmet that passes the Australian tests for each of the tests. I’d love to know if Brand A just scraped through with a pass or far exceeded the requirements. I for one would take this into consideration for my next helmet purchase and I doubt I’m the only one.
 

floody

Wheel size expert
Rasatouche, the insurance in question is that of cycling bodies like MTBA and road transport authority accident insurance (i.e. everyone has it, its not a policy you take out).
 

stinky1138

Likes Dirt
Not sure about other countries standards, but personally I would prefer to wear a helmet approved by Standards Australia then one approved by the Democratic Republic of Congo



Nothing is certain but if I was involved in a crash, I would prefer to be wearing a helmet then none at all. There's a fine line between walking away with a headache and being in hospital bed for a few months. Wearing a helmet is not exactly a stressful or difficult activity - very little effort to reduce the risk of a sore head (or worse)



*sigh*
I recently watched a hockey game where a ref left the game due to a concussion. He was moving at less than walking pace, and fell only his body height. He got tripped and hit the back of his head. His helmet didn't prevent the concussion, that is all I was trying to say.

Re stickers...point missed a bit. Stickers are made with somewhat toxic glue, it will eat away at the shell and foam in a helmet over time. Unless it is the non-toxic variety, like scrapbooking stickers or kids stickers. The article wants to frighten people into wearing AU approved helmets by saying you're breaking the law if you don't. But either the sticker they are using is toxic and will degrade the foam, or it's got weak glue which might give on a particularly sweaty day. I think it's a bit hypcrytical to tell people they're not safe with a non AU approved helmet, but then use products that can damage the lid (or use products that easily fall off). I currently have 3 helmets purchased in Australia, none have these stickers. I didn't remove them, i have no idea what happened. So then I guess cops should be writing me tickets for wearing my lid, because it doesn't have a sticker on it. It's a stupid law punishing people for doing the right (safe) thing.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
Interesting read so far. Couple of thngs stand out though.

Toxic glue? I'm sure they never even considered this (despite the fact most complience stickers aren't even placed on the foam anyway! [/sarcasm]

Secondly (and slightly OT but has been mentioned in this thread a number of times so...) - my background is 30+ years of motor racing and if a car is involved in an incident where the seat restraints have been heavily used (sudden stop by hitting Dick Johnson/Mark Skaife in the side etc :) ) the seat belt is cut and destroyed on the spot! Similarly with helmet - if an impact is made to the helmet and that impact is visible, the helmet is confiscated and, in all liklihood, not returned to the driver in a useable condition (straps cut etc). Motorcycle racing, go karts, speedway - all have very similar rules.

Harsh? Maybe - but the whole issue is about SAFETY to the driver, not how much the belts or helmet cost.

One thing I have noticed over the past few years in MTB events, are the nuber of helmets riders use that bear obvious signs of heavy falls/knocks and even cracking/damage. Yet they still insist on using them ("She'll be right mate - it saved me from injury last time....").

Sure you can risk riding with that $20 helmet (with $99 shipping and packaging) you found on line from Timbucktoo and use it (after all, it cracked when you hit the ground and you didn't get injured - that time) but are you REALLY prepared to risk, for the sake of $10, $20 or even $100, finding out that the insurance policy on the event you are competing in won't cover you because of a 'technicality'? You know, the bit that, when you signed on to agree to when you entered, of your helmet not carrying an Aus Standards certification sticker?

As a test do this - next time you open the bonnet of your car - have a look at all the ADR's (Australian Design rules) on the car's complience plate, your car has to comply with BEFORE it can be registered and used in Australia. You don't query those (ignorance is no excuse under the law remember) - or even try and buy, say, a Celica GT directly from Japan and see if you can get it registered here...you won't because it doesn't comply.

Riders will pay $00's to save a few grams on their bike, but many seem to baulk at paying $nn more for a helmet from Australia and, instead, buy it from OS (often with shipping making it same price or only a few dollars cheaper, as here anyway). Something isn't quite right with this logic!
 

frensham

Likes Dirt
All this talk of overseas helmets not being as 'safe' as those purchased here is bullshit. Try telling all those pro riders from all around the world currently riding in the Tour Down Under that their helmets aren't safe! What a load of crap.Australia may have the most stringent standards but this does no make them any safer than those that comply with the standards set in Europe and the USA. If you buy a helmet from CRC or Wiggle or Jenson you can be be totally sure that is is safe and you will spend a whole lot less than buying it here. Your only issue is if you want to compete and the organiser demands an Australian Standards sticker. Otherwise save yourself some hard earned cash.
 
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rone

Eats Squid
Interesting read so far. Couple of thngs stand out though.

Toxic glue? I'm sure they never even considered this (despite the fact most complience stickers aren't even placed on the foam anyway! [/sarcasm]

Secondly (and slightly OT but has been mentioned in this thread a number of times so...) - my background is 30+ years of motor racing and if a car is involved in an incident where the seat restraints have been heavily used (sudden stop by hitting Dick Johnson/Mark Skaife in the side etc :) ) the seat belt is cut and destroyed on the spot! Similarly with helmet - if an impact is made to the helmet and that impact is visible, the helmet is confiscated and, in all liklihood, not returned to the driver in a useable condition (straps cut etc). Motorcycle racing, go karts, speedway - all have very similar rules.

Harsh? Maybe - but the whole issue is about SAFETY to the driver, not how much the belts or helmet cost.

One thing I have noticed over the past few years in MTB events, are the nuber of helmets riders use that bear obvious signs of heavy falls/knocks and even cracking/damage. Yet they still insist on using them ("She'll be right mate - it saved me from injury last time....").

Sure you can risk riding with that $20 helmet (with $99 shipping and packaging) you found on line from Timbucktoo and use it (after all, it cracked when you hit the ground and you didn't get injured - that time) but are you REALLY prepared to risk, for the sake of $10, $20 or even $100, finding out that the insurance policy on the event you are competing in won't cover you because of a 'technicality'? You know, the bit that, when you signed on to agree to when you entered, of your helmet not carrying an Aus Standards certification sticker?

As a test do this - next time you open the bonnet of your car - have a look at all the ADR's (Australian Design rules) on the car's complience plate, your car has to comply with BEFORE it can be registered and used in Australia. You don't query those (ignorance is no excuse under the law remember) - or even try and buy, say, a Celica GT directly from Japan and see if you can get it registered here...you won't because it doesn't comply.

Riders will pay $00's to save a few grams on their bike, but many seem to baulk at paying $nn more for a helmet from Australia and, instead, buy it from OS (often with shipping making it same price or only a few dollars cheaper, as here anyway). Something isn't quite right with this logic!

So your inference is that it it wasn't bought in Australia it isn't safe? Are we that much better off than the rest of the developed world? I don't think so. By your logic all the Celica GTs driven around the rest of the world are deficient in some way. Don't think so either. And your stating that you only save a few dollars by buying a helmet from Timbuktu smacks of the Government scaremongering that started this thread.

It is very east to go online and buy an identical helmet to one sold here - minus one very expensive sticker - for 40% to 50% of the Australian price. Most will offer free or heavily discounted postage ($99? - Hardly) and will be shipped from either the US or Europe.

It seems to me that the main reasons the Australian Standards testing is different is so they can extract more money from importers and the general public and claim it's for our greater good. It's just another hidden tax.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
So your inference is that it it wasn't bought in Australia it isn't safe? Are we that much better off than the rest of the developed world? I don't think so. By your logic all the Celica GTs driven around the rest of the world are deficient in some way. Don't think so either. And your stating that you only save a few dollars by buying a helmet from Timbuktu smacks of the Government scaremongering that started this thread.

It is very east to go online and buy an identical helmet to one sold here - minus one very expensive sticker - for 40% to 50% of the Australian price. Most will offer free or heavily discounted postage ($99? - Hardly) and will be shipped from either the US or Europe.

It seems to me that the main reasons the Australian Standards testing is different is so they can extract more money from importers and the general public and claim it's for our greater good. It's just another hidden tax.
I didn't say that at all and have no idea HOW you came to the conclusion I did. I said, quite simply, firstly toxic glue?? And that the majority of labels are placed on the shell NOT the foam.

I then simply made a statement about the condition of many helmets I see in MTB events and drew a parallel to other forms of sport where a helmet is used ie if they are involved in ANY form of ahrd knock/incident, they should never be used again.

And, again if you read what was written, the Celica GT example was given because the Japanese GT (which was never available in Australia) was because it couldn't conform to the ADR's - it had nothing to do with whether it was safer, unsafe or whatever - it simply did NOT conform to the laws of Australia. Full stop, period.

As for $99 postage - yeah I accept that may have been OTT, but postage of $40 plus is very common and, if you want it yesterday, $99 is not unreasonable. But my point about MTB'ers spending hundreds on saving a few grams but them refusing to pay Australian prices for a safety item - well I'm still trying to ascertain the logic of this.
 

rone

Eats Squid
And, again if you read what was written, the Celica GT example was given because the Japanese GT (which was never available in Australia) was because it couldn't conform to the ADR's - it had nothing to do with whether it was safer, unsafe or whatever - it simply did NOT conform to the laws of Australia. Full stop, period.

As for $99 postage - yeah I accept that may have been OTT, but postage of $40 plus is very common and, if you want it yesterday, $99 is not unreasonable. But my point about MTB'ers spending hundreds on saving a few grams but them refusing to pay Australian prices for a safety item - well I'm still trying to ascertain the logic of this.

So you used the specific example of the Celica GT because it supports your viewpoint. Okay, if it suits.

The logic of buying an identical helmet to one purchasable here, but for half the Australian retail price, seems patently obvious to a large number of people who go ahead an buy from OS. We are not talking about a small discount. You can save hundreds.

A lot of people will never race. They just want the protection of a quality helmet without being gouged.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
Whatever. I used the example of something that hasn't been tested here but which may well exceed local requirements - because it hasn't been tested, it couldn't be registered. Not hard to fathom out for most intelligent people.

As for saving 'half the price' - n oproblems. Go ahead and do that. And spend the same amount, plus more, to save 25 grams on a new set of wheels, or seat post, or head tube. But be buggered if you want to spend the same extra amount on a helmet to comply with local laws.

Personally, with this attitude around, I'm coming round more and more to the idea of 'No complience sticker, no race' and also Shane Warne's idea of registering all bikes (even if he is a fool at times). But hey, bike riders don;t need to obey the laws do they?
 
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