Helmets - are you really covered?

stinky1138

Likes Dirt
I'm not from Au, perhaps we don't call all the parts the same name.
Two different helmets, both with AU compliant stickers on (what I term) the foam.

Examples of sticker packs Acid Free and non Acid Free. I only know acid free ones exist because of friends who do scrapbooking. If they bother to make ones that ARE acid free, one could logcially infer there are ones that are NOT acid free. For my entire elementary school (K-6) stay we had assemblies specifically about bike safety. Stickers on helmets= no bueno.

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serowe

Likes Dirt
Let's be honest though - the argument of not wanting to use anything, or removing sticker from, a helmet because the sticker(s) might not be acid free is just an excuse and nothing more. Does anyone honestly believe something is going to be used that degrades the material it is being attached to? And, even if it did, how long would it take and what effect would it have on the overall protection othe helmet affords? (keeping in mind that stickers are also placed on helmets overseas as well).
 

akashra

Eats Squid
The fallacy that the helmets are the same when sold on Australian shores and overseas really needs to stop being spread.
Many helmets require modification to meet the AS2063.20xx standards.
 

SCHOEY

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The fallacy that the helmets are the same when sold on Australian shores and overseas really needs to stop being spread.
Many helmets require modification to meet the AS2063.20xx standards.
Got any examples of specific helmets?
 

frensham

Likes Dirt
The fallacy that the helmets are the same when sold on Australian shores and overseas really needs to stop being spread.
Many helmets require modification to meet the AS2063.20xx standards.
This is true. Mostly in the strap area in order that the strap stretches in an accident so that the helmet can come off. This regulation appears to be unique to Australia. If our standards were that much safer, we would insist that all riders competing in this country wear an Australian approved helmet. However all the pros from Europe etc are free to wear helmets without aussie stickers - go figure.
 

cleeshoy

Eats Squid
I recently watched a hockey game where a ref left the game due to a concussion. He was moving at less than walking pace, and fell only his body height. He got tripped and hit the back of his head. His helmet didn't prevent the concussion, that is all I was trying to say.
Of course you fail to mention that the helmet most likely prevented the ref from much worse injuries. Would hate to think what would have happened if the ref was NOT wearing a helmet, but I guess we'll never know. I reckon the ref was glad he was wearing a helmet.

How about you replicate what the ref did WITHOUT a helmet. I am willing to bet you'll up with more then just concussion.

Remember Natasha Richardson? She had a simple "slip and fall" on her head incident at a beginners ski run (from memory she fell backwards and hit the back of her head - please correct me if I am wrong).
According to wikipedia..
The injury was followed by a lucid interval, when Richardson seemed to be fine and was able to talk and act normally. Paramedics and an ambulance which initially responded to the accident were told they were not needed and left. Refusing medical attention twice, she returned to her hotel room and about three hours later was taken to a local hospital in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts after complaining of a headache. She was transferred from there by ambulance to Hôpital du Sacré-Cœur, Montreal, in critical condition and was admitted about seven hours after the fall. The following day she was flown to Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City, where she died on 18 March. An autopsy conducted by the New York City Medical Examiners Office on 19 March revealed the cause of death was an "epidural haematoma due to blunt impact to the head", and her death was ruled an accident.

Had she worn a helmet, she still might have gotten concussion, but chances are she would still be alive today.
Helmets are not a guarentee against head injury (especially in high speed collisions) but if I was about to crash, I would prefer to have one on my head.



Re stickers...point missed a bit. Stickers are made with somewhat toxic glue, it will eat away at the shell and foam in a helmet over time. Unless it is the non-toxic variety, like scrapbooking stickers or kids stickers. The article wants to frighten people into wearing AU approved helmets by saying you're breaking the law if you don't. But either the sticker they are using is toxic and will degrade the foam, or it's got weak glue which might give on a particularly sweaty day. I think it's a bit hypcrytical to tell people they're not safe with a non AU approved helmet, but then use products that can damage the lid (or use products that easily fall off). I currently have 3 helmets purchased in Australia, none have these stickers. I didn't remove them, i have no idea what happened. So then I guess cops should be writing me tickets for wearing my lid, because it doesn't have a sticker on it. It's a stupid law punishing people for doing the right (safe) thing.
Are you an expert on glue? Without any factual evidence of the glue/adhesive Standards Australia use to stick the "approved" sticker on the helmets directly causes degradation of the said helmet you sound well.... <insert insult here>. Standards Australia have been around for quite some time and they wouldn't still be around if they weren't doing things right. It would cause irrepairable damage to their reputation otherwise.

My helmets have the SA sticker on them. I race mtbs. If I have a crash and need to claim some form of insurance I know the insurance company has less of a chance of knocking my claim back. Yes I agree its likely a claim with a non-SA sticker will still go through OK but why give them the chance for the sake of saving $50-100? I have seen people's car insurance claims gets rejected because the person failed to tell the insurer of a speeding offence and fine they received 5 years ago. By not disclosing that one speeding offence, they voided their policy (as per the PDS) and thus no payout!

In Wollongong in the 1990's there was a huge storm which caused landslides with many people having their houses washed away. There was huge outcry over some insurance companies not paying up because there was argument over whether it was a "storm" or a "flood" (some people did not have flood cover). Think Queensland floods. Some people are still waiting on payouts. Insurance companies have been known to try to weasel their way out of some claims - why give them the chance.
 
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serowe

Likes Dirt
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned either - Australian Standards recognise that materials deteriorate with use and over time.

If I go back to the motor racing scenario(s), helmets, belts etc eventually have to be replaced because older standard (can't recall off hand after how many years) become superceded by newer standards and, as such, the older standard stickers are no longer permitted to be used. And, in these cases, there is no leeway - you turn up to a race meeting with a helmet that doesn't have, or has an out of date AS sticker and you have two choices - get yourself a new one before you go on the track or go home. There is no in between ('Oh sorry, I'll get one for next time' 'Sorry Elvis, it's now or never - we ain't doing the paperwork for the coroner for you')
 

rone

Eats Squid
And yet it would be perfectly acceptable to ride or race with one of these out of date bicycle helmets on. An older helmet may show no signs of wear but, as has been said already, becomes brittle with age. Yet if the sticker is there it can be successfully argued that it is still okay to race in. Nobody is asked to prove how old a helmet is.

And lets briefly highlight the 'legal obligation' helmet wearers who are still repping some old polystyrene shell, the outer and foam pads long since departed, badly adjusted straps flapping away, that they have had their whole cycling career, that still comply with the road rules as they still have an AS sticker.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
And yet it would be perfectly acceptable to ride or race with one of these out of date bicycle helmets on. An older helmet may show no signs of wear but, as has been said already, becomes brittle with age. Yet if the sticker is there it can be successfully argued that it is still okay to race in. Nobody is asked to prove how old a helmet is.
Well not quite true - but lets not let facts get in the way of this, shall we? Someone else can confirm this but as I understand it there is a reasonably recent standard for helmets which supercedes the previous standard. An event organiser, MTBA, insurance company or SA themselves can state that the older standard is not acceptable for an event (IIRC this happened at the Garmin 24 Hour). Just because the sticker is on a helmet doesn't mean it conforms to currently acceptable and legal standards.

And lets briefly highlight the 'legal obligation' helmet wearers who are still repping some old polystyrene shell, the outer and foam pads long since departed, badly adjusted straps flapping away, that they have had their whole cycling career, that still comply with the road rules as they still have an AS sticker.
As I said before - some of the helmets I have seen have only one place - the scrap heap. But the riders insist 'it helped save me before, it will again'. Personally, like motor sport, ANY helmet involved in a rider incident that involves a knock to the helmet should be destroyed immediately. No arguments at all. If the rider doesn't like it - well, sorry, tough - try helping, or working with someone who has sustained a head injury and then see if you feel the same way. This is one area, IMHO, MTBA have no backbone whatsoever - enforcement of old and damaged helmets. But I guess it will only take one court case to change their attitude (or, more precisely, the insurance company will force the change).
 

jayjay3032

Likes Bikes
re: Sticker Glue

If the CFMEU, ETU and countless other unions can organise stickers with glue that won't damage a hardhat, surely the Aus standards would be using the same stuff?
 

Anarchist

Likes Dirt
The fallacy that the helmets are the same when sold on Australian shores and overseas really needs to stop being spread.
Many helmets require modification to meet the AS2063.20xx standards.
Examples? Really, please.

You think/know an overseas Fox flux (for example) is different to an Australian bought one? They are identical. The straps are the same, the shell, foam, the lot (I've looked and yes, I am not a helmet or standards expert, but I can measure and compare reasonably well). Except for the silver sticker, of course. It makes little or no business sense to modify a helmet for our tiny market. Sure, test away if the manufacturer is confident that it will comply (with FEA and such it's predictable) they can afford the sizes and batches, but to modify a production run? I can't see it happening often, if ever.

Scaremongering. I'm surprised Today Tonight haven't picked this up.
 

SCHOEY

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I did a personal loan (when I worked at the bank) for the lady who is the head tester (in fact she is the only tester) at the Rosebank facility in Victoria.

They are the aussie test facility that determine whether it meets standard or not. If she says 'NO', the helmet dosn't make it on our shelves.

She is personally responsible for the testing of every helmet for sale in Aus from Kmart to Bike shops.
Is that the Rosebank that make helmets also?
 

mtb101

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I purchased (2) $300+ Italian brand helmets for $99 each from bike shop who knows distributors well (old standards AU helmets). Essentially owner told me that the new AU standards required that helmet makers resubmit their helmets for retesting. Now it aren't due to us having soft heads or the like, it's simply a reapplication/update of AU/NZ standards that some helmet makers don't want to do or haven't got around to doing yet. Main reason being AU is a small market so no rush to spend the $$$ on re certification of product.

Funny thing at the recent Garmin 24 hour they were playing helmet policeman and checking helmets, made them look a bit foolish I thought. Then again if you want to pay 200% more for a high end helmet in AU compared to online ..... well it won't come with the AU sticker.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
Funny thing at the recent Garmin 24 hour they were playing helmet policeman and checking helmets, made them look a bit foolish I thought.
Why? Because you didn't agree with it? This was known when you entered, it wasn't something sprung on you when you got there was it?

From the rider info pack (still available on the FGP site btw):

Riding
While on the course you must have:
- A fun and care free attitude
- A current Australian Standards approved bike helmet. This means the helmet must carry the appropriate
documentation inside the helmet, certifying it’s compliance to Australian Standards. It is a requirement of our event
insurance that all participants use an Australian Standards approved helmet. Riders will not be able to ride on the
course unless their helmet carries these markings and carries the markings that FGP will use at registration to
visibly show the helmet/rider complies.
The bottom line is you had a choice. If you didn't want to front up with a helmet that would pass the entry conditions, then you could have stayed home.
 

rone

Eats Squid
So the answer is to get your good helmets from overseas, and then just buy a cheap Kmart shitter with the sticker to go racing.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
So the answer is to get your good helmets from overseas, and then just buy a cheap Kmart shitter with the sticker to go racing.
Which will probably be just as good as your helmet from overseas but doesn't have the same brand name as the one you *must* have because it cost hundreds and came from overseas! That's right, can't go around in 'cheap shit' because it would ruin your fine reputaiton!

Shane Warne has got it wrong. Bikes shouldn't be registered - the riders need to be psychologically tested as well...
 

rone

Eats Squid
Which will probably be just as good as your helmet from overseas but doesn't have the same brand name as the one you *must* have because it cost hundreds and came from overseas! That's right, can't go around in 'cheap shit' because it would ruin your fine reputaiton!

Shane Warne has got it wrong. Bikes shouldn't be registered - the riders need to be psychologically tested as well...
The brand I choose to use happens to fit me better than the others. Unfortunately the importers of Giro - Pacific Brands - don't bring in any of the higher end MTB helmets, just the road helmets. I have tried other brands but the level of fit just isn't there. So if I want a quality Giro MTB helmet what do I do? Pac Brands don't see enough viability in bringing in the models I would like, so I should suffer inferior fit and/or discomfort to conform with a market legislation in part dictated by economics of an underpants manufacturer?

It's not my reputation I care about. If I ever make it to a race it is to have fun, not to win. I do care about the reputation of the helmet i am wearing and would sooner entrust the safety of my head to the result of the research done by the R&D department of the helmet company, rather than some government scientists trying to justify their existence and funding with their alleged 'better' standard.

Giro helmets have saved me twice in accidents severe enough to crack the helmets shell.

You opinions are based on motorsport, which correct me if I'm wrong, is different to cycling. I hope you're happy in your life of unquestioning compliance.

I'll go with what works for me.
 
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wilddemon

Likes Dirt
Which will probably be just as good as your helmet from overseas but doesn't have the same brand name as the one you *must* have because it cost hundreds and came from overseas! That's right, can't go around in 'cheap shit' because it would ruin your fine reputaiton!

Shane Warne has got it wrong. Bikes shouldn't be registered - the riders need to be psychologically tested as well...
I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions. Are you having a bad day mate?
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions. Are you having a bad day mate?
Nope - having a good one actually. I drew the same conclusions in my response to the ones that rone has been drawing all along - fanciful and wild. But hey, never let saving a few dollars stand in the way of the possibility of having to fork out medical costs, ambulance costs and so on if an insurance company decides to wipe you from coverage because you didn't follow the requirements for the event you signed up for (you being general terms here).
 
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