How can I determine my optimum cadence and heart rate while training?

[whitey89]

Im a long time mtb but newbie at road. Ive got myself a garmin and want to start using the cadence and heart rate monitors for training but I have no idea what i should be looking at! Ive done a few "googles" but cant find too much info on getting started, anyone have any advice for working with either? Are there set formulas I can follow or anything?

Heres a bit of info about me if that helps!
Im young (24) and reasonable fit, I feel pretty comfortable at maintaining 80rpm at the moment on a 50-70km medium difficulty ride (say bobbin head). I havent experimented with the heart rate yet...
Im mainly using the roadie to train for XC/DH.

Cheers,
Whitey

 

[Ozkaban]

There are some decent books on training with HR. Mostly it's just a pretty line on a graph though. Kinda like a tacho on a car - you know when you're revving it's ring out without having to see. I'll see if I can find the links to the books.

As for cadence, keep it between 80-100. I find when climbing a hill like bobbo I tend to keep my cadence ~100rpm (sitting and spinning - lower cadence with a higher gear for standing) and about 80+ for flats. If you're doing specific training like sprints or strength that would vary depending on what you're after. If you just want to keep yourself in a good endurance band to smash out the kms then 80-100rpm is a very good start.

EDIT: if you're wanting to look at some solid rides in the Hornsby area, NSCC do 3 different level rides on sat morning all starting from Hornsby. Typically through bobbin head, out to Terrey Hills/duffys forest and back to Turramurra. Feel free to join in if you wish.

 

[driftking]

As a start for cadence you should aim to hit 90rpm, this is considered the "ideal" average, it is essentially the point in which you are getting the best power for energy spent. It will vary between people slightly but short of power meters and a some pretty hectic assessment your best bet is to start at 90 and adjust to feeling/performance.

Heart rates are very individual and the best anyone can give you would be zones, the issue is and one that I am having is there are different zones depending who and where you look.

The zone you use will be determined by the adaptions you are trying to make. For instance if you are aiming for anaerobic/lactate threshold improvement you will be riding harder than if you are going for a base level endurance. The same goes for cadence, some exercises and goals require you to spin out and hit as high a cadence as possible while others will require a slower high gear sprint or uphill riding.

The best thing to do and if you are medically cleared to do so, is a threshold test, threshold is a much better assessment and measurement to follow than heart rate but it is also a very demanding effort and is always recommended to be medically cleared to do so first.

I will add that if you are planning on using a heart rate calculator its best to know your max rather than guessing, from here the most accurate calculation is the karvonen formula;
Target Heart Rate = ((max HR − resting HR) × %Intensity) + resting HR

As you can see you need to know your max and the intensity (Your adaption goal)

 

[fergo]

I'm recovering from a broken leg so my base fitness has taken a hit.

I went for a ride on the weekend with an ex Aussie Road team member - he used to ride with Phil Anderson. Anyway, he said 90rpm was the key and when fit, the heart rate should be about 120-130 bpm. Mine was 160bpm average for our 60km ride!!! He was about 110 bpm!!

His suggestion for training was long rides at 90 cadence. The average heart rate will decrease as I get fitter and spend about 8 hrs per week on the bike. I'm not ready yet for intervals or big efforts or hills, just tapping out a consistent cadence for long periods. My aerobic fitness is too low - hence higher heart rate.

 

[RB 24]

not long ago had a very good chat to an ex pro and now cycling coach and basically this is what he said about training by HR.

HR is not accurate as it is dependant on the day you train and gives no true guideline for training. If the wind is stronger or you are feeling more fatigued or if you have chosen a different gearing etc etc it will change as to how hard your HR will go. Cadence is also a bit of hit and miss as it varies on being in the same gear etc all the time to make sure it is giving a timeline for performance.
want to get real training accuracy for improvement... go power.

when I cried poor and said I couldnt afford a power tap hub he suggested then to go more off a cadence based line.

I will ask again for a more detailed breakdown tomorrow night and let you know.

 

[Cúl-Báire]

There is bucket loads of literature on this stuff, check out the XC Racing forum on MTBR and that will give you a load of links to various sites with literature from various respected coaches, doctors, athletes and god knows what else; all with differing theories on the matter.

I personally use Lactate Threshold as a guide for heart rate training - works for me but YMMV!

Also after a while you'll find you know what you are doing / feeling without needing to look at the HRM / Cadence meter.

 

[StanTheMan]

far out. I get 77 average on a 2.5 hr ride on a MTB.... sure climbing hills is somewhere around 88 but once I go past that...the heart rate goes north. But speed goes south.

 

[Cúl-Báire]

Cadence is also a bit of hit and miss as it varies on being in the same gear etc all the time to make sure it is giving a timeline for performance. Want to get real training accuracy for improvement... go power.

when I cried poor and said I couldnt afford a power tap hub he suggested then to go more off a cadence based line.

Even training with power has it's flaws, its also very cost prohibitive although Stages Cycling is looking like bridging the gap a little http://www.stagescycling.com/stagespower.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Im a long time mtb but newbie at road. Ive got myself a garmin and want to start using the cadence and heart rate monitors for training but I have no idea what i should be looking at! Ive done a few "googles" but cant find too much info on getting started, anyone have any advice for working with either? Are there set formulas I can follow or anything?

Heres a bit of info about me if that helps!
Im young (24) and reasonable fit, I feel pretty comfortable at maintaining 80rpm at the moment on a 50-70km medium difficulty ride (say bobbin head). I havent experimented with the heart rate yet...
Im mainly using the roadie to train for XC/DH.

Cheers,
Whitey

I got into road for the similar reasons (DH and XC training) and to loose a few kg's. Not an expert, but my 2 cents as follows.

You should train for what you want to do. Doing 150km road rides with a 110bpm will not help with a 180bpm 4 minute DH balls to the wall stop-start sprint. I think you need to decide if you want higher power or better endurance.

If you want higher power, do bobbin head hill repeats as fast as you can and build your lactic threshold and muscle strength. Ride until you are shattered, then do one more climb. Do this a few times a week, make sure you have a big chocolate milkshake within 30 minutes of finishing riding (proven by AIS as best recovery food, contains protein and sugar). In 2 months you will be smashing it. Train in HR Zone 4-5. Track your progress on the Garmin and try to better your time and KOM position as motivation as this training can get boring and it hurts.

If you want super endurance you should train at a lower heart rate (In Zone 2) and punch out 6 hour+ rides. Never train in Zone 3, it is dead mans land and not recommended. I found this document fairly good if your wanting to train for endurance - its part of the training program for 3 peaks 235km challenge. You should reprogram your Garmin to match these heart rates zones as the present ones are different. http://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/media/vanilla/file/Cycling-Inform's Heart Rate Training Guide.pdf

If you try to do both at the same time you will end up master of neither, so make a choice to start with.

For cadence, I don't know if I agree with high cadence is always better. It depends on your body type, I have tried it and didn't suit me. I just naturally prefer to spin slower (around 70-75rpm) and apply more torque but I am 185cm and weigh 85kg. Maybe if your a Tour De France 65kg bean stick 100rpm would work.

 

[Cúl-Báire]

If you want super endurance you should train at a lower heart rate (In Zone 2) and punch out 6 hour+ rides. Never train in Zone 3, it is dead mans land and not recommended.

The benefit of riding Zone 3 or "tempo" is quite debated, and a somewhat controversial topic... It's believed to offer the same adaptions as "Zone 2" and then some whilst achieving them in shorter time.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tr...ing-part-3-tempo-and-sweet-spot-training.html

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html

http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/intervals-waste-time-854354.html

 

[driftking]

I wouldn't say never train in zone 3, zone 3 is actually very important for endurance riders because they spend quite some time in this area.
It is the least effective for bang for your buck though because you are in that area where your body is switching and pulled between upper/max aerobic and beginning anaerobic, because you are in your upper maximal aerobic zone you burn out faster, but adaptions do occur and you will find many endurance riders spend quite a bit of time in tempo "no mans land" during training. Its a matter of understanding the no mans land zone and when and why to use it.

 

[Ozkaban]

<snip>
For cadence, I don't know if I agree with high cadence is always better. It depends on your body type, I have tried it and didn't suit me. I just naturally prefer to spin slower (around 70-75rpm) and apply more torque but I am 185cm and weigh 85kg. Maybe if your a Tour De France 65kg bean stick 100rpm would work.

That's interesting, and it shows how reliable cadence training is. I'm exactly the same height and weight as you, and yet I find that after a reasonably spirited ride over say 80km at a bit over 30kmh avg I'd average about 85-88 odd rpm. In races I'm higher, commuting I'm lower. As you said, your body naturally prefers one and it's probably best to go with it. Cadel is a 'stand-and-grind' type climber and Wiggo is a sit-and-spin type. Neither method is wrong for them, obviously. Both are stupidly fast up massive hills that would give the rest of us heart attacks for just contemplating them.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Okay, okay

Maybe saying "never train in zone 3" was a bit cut and dry. As with most things fitness, everyone has opinions about what is and is not best. I personally find it impossible to stay in Zone 2 unless I am puttering around centennial park or on the trainer which is boring.

I just tend to ride as hard as I can on the bike. Works for me, easily in the top 2.5% of most KOM climbs around Sydney (not bad for a 85kg guy) and still not dropped on 150km rides. I suffer on >150km rides but generally prefer shorter rides anyway.

 

[cleeshoy]

Okay, okay

Maybe saying "never train in zone 3" was a bit cut and dry. As with most things fitness, everyone has opinions about what is and is not best. I personally find it impossible to stay in Zone 2 unless I am puttering around centennial park or on the trainer which is boring.

I just tend to ride as hard as I can on the bike. Works for me, easily in the top 2.5% of most KOM climbs around Sydney (not bad for a 85kg guy) and still not dropped on 150km rides. I suffer on >150km rides but generally prefer shorter rides anyway.

Hope you build in time for recovery as well

 

[Cave Dweller]

Hope you build in time for recovery as well

Only ride 3 times per week, two 50km morning rides within Mon-Fri and a longer weekend ride (road or mountain bike). Do a bit of running as well to cross train. I just go by how my body is feeling. If its a bit lethargic I will take it a bit easy.

 

[whitey89]

So its been a while since ive posted and thankyou to everyone for their advice, ive been working on my cadence and the advice given by you guys was fantastic.

Today i hooked up my heart rate monitor. My resting heart rate is around 90bpm, after my ride which was 45km through Bobbin Head, my average rate was 200bpm and my max was 250bpm. Does that sound right? It seems pretty high to me...

 

[driftking]

So its been a while since ive posted and thankyou to everyone for their advice, ive been working on my cadence and the advice given by you guys was fantastic.

Today i hooked up my heart rate monitor. My resting heart rate is around 90bpm, after my ride which was 45km through Bobbin Head, my average rate was 200bpm and my max was 250bpm. Does that sound right? It seems pretty high to me...

No that doesn't sound right. Given the hearts safe maximum is 220. There are conditions where people have very high like reaching 300 but they are not standing and more than likely laying in a hospital bed and they clearly have serious symptoms.

Even if you are cadel fit you shouldn't be exceeding 220 or even hitting 220 from my understanding.

What monitor do you use? If it is polar they can get interference from other devices and even overhead wires. If your heart indeed reached these numbers I'd be seeing a cardiologist for at least a exercise stress test before I even get back on the bike or do any exercise.

Its pretty unlike for your heart to do those numbers and you still feel fine to ride it sound more likely its a monitor issue or interference. But as this is your heart and this is a forum that you use at your own risk.

It would be my recommendation to go see a doctor ASAP before under taking anymore exercise.

(Many others will say its just the monitor and chances are it is but we are not doctors or have seen you so we cannot know for sure therefore I think seeing a doctor is the only advice I can give you to be safe)

 

[fergo]

...

Its pretty unlike for your heart to do those numbers and you still feel fine to ride it sound more likely its a monitor issue or interference. But as this is your heart and this is a forum that you use at your own risk.

It would be my recommendation to go see a doctor ASAP before under taking anymore exercise.

(Many others will say its just the monitor and chances are it is but we are not doctors or have seen you so we cannot know for sure therefore I think seeing a doctor is the only advice I can give you to be safe)

Before scaring the daylights out of yourself and rushing off to the doc, wear your heart rate monitor and find your pulse in your neck and count the pulse for 60 seconds. If the number is the same, start walking to compare the two. If the unit sky rockets quickly, get off and see a Doc. Otherwise, check out sources of interference for the bike one or buy a new one.

Obviously, you know how your body feels and if it feels like your chest is going to explode or you're still worried, see a doc.

 

[pharmaboy]

Before scaring the daylights out of yourself and rushing off to the doc, wear your heart rate monitor and find your pulse in your neck and count the pulse for 60 seconds. If the number is the same, start walking to compare the two. If the unit sky rockets quickly, get off and see a Doc. Otherwise, check out sources of interference for the bike one or buy a new one.

Obviously, you know how your body feels and if it feels like your chest is going to explode or you're still worried, see a doc.

2 things about interference - electronics firstly, a phone or computer sends my hear rate monitor spastic at times.

Second, is ectopic beats - common as muck but some hrms think they are the new rate.

Borrow a hrm and try it out - expect a new set of readings, avg 220 is not likely at all , 200 avg and 220 top is rare but in th confines of normal if you are tall

 

[eastie]

There's lots of things that will throw your HR monitor out - quick google search for "hr monitor massive spike" and you come up with sites like this: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/04/troubleshooting-your-heart-rate.html

Had similar with a both polar and sunnto ambit throwing stupid figures. Try licking the electrodes and see how it goes.