Ridenparadise
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Good to see all that money going for absolutely nothing in Victoria. No wonder we hate fucking politicians.:noidea:
How many east/west MTB trails could you build for $640million?
- Thread starter Ridenparadise
- Start date
Ridenparadise
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Scrapping the east west link road project in Melbourne at a cost of 640M to the taxpayer. 640M for zero result!
Mywifesirrational
I however am very normal. Trust me.
Certainly should have, as it was instigated by an elected government in power and needed to be done, I commute through there daily, it's bad now give it 10 years...
Takes 2.5 hours to public transport it to work, 24 minutes to drive before peak hour and depending on how many crashes are on the bridge or tunnel anything up to 3-5 hours to get across town.
What does it cost per km to build a mountain bike trail? rail is a million a km, road not sure either?
DMan
shawly the least hangeriest guy on rotorburn
Seriously? $1,000,000 per km? I had no idea.
Mywifesirrational
I however am very normal. Trust me.
Just had a dig around on the net, price varies for different capitals in Australia, but overall it looks like double rail (metro) is actually 4.1 million a km and underground is a whopping 40 million a km + the cost of stations.
You can't just look at the initial cost of infra like that though as it's only one part of the picture.
The return on that investment is what needs to be considered and there is a huge amount involved there as you have to factor in everything from reduced congestion adding mobility of commercial activity, changes in property prices, residual employment and revenue generation/loss from operating and maintaining the new infra, reduction/increase of pollutants and other related outcomes, etc.
I'm not a Mexican so I don't know the daily ins and outs of this particular piece of transport infra but I personally would prefer to see money being spent on improved public transport systems with more timely connectivity (not having to wait for ages to change from bus to train, etc.), faster transit from population areas to CBDs, better options for door to bus stops/train stations, etc. I'm not a fan of increasing or encouraging private motor transport, which I say as a driver, cyclist and public transport user that has lived in places like Sydney and Beijing that have shocking traffic and Canberra which has very, very little traffic.
yeah it's needed, but as Johny says just before me, the business case simply didn't stack up - they had to cap tolls to an affordable level which means that the shortfall had to be taken up by the taxpayer.... it didn't seem to be a reasonable way to spend so much money for so little return.
Jesterarts
Likes Dirt
I thought it was only $339 million?
Either way, staggering waste based solely on principal. Labor had to keep the inner city hipsters happy as that's how they got into power.
I've had a chat a few people around this topi and it seems those who oppose it are generally of the opinion that driving is a choice, and everyone should just catch public transport and/or ride a bike.
There are several challenges I have with this:
1. Tell that to the truckies and tradies who are stuck on the West Gate each morning.
2. Public transport is the alternative to driving, not the other way round.
After uni, my first job was in the city and every job since has been in the city. I live in Cranbourne and there is not businesses in my industry that way to I am forced to get to the city.
For 5 years, I used public transport.
In summer, this was my commute:
1. Leave my house and walk the 1km to the bus stop.
2. Hope the bus arrives on time
3. Hope my myki works
4. Take the 15min ride to the station, potentially already having people in my personal space
5. Arrive at the station and find out my train is cancelled, delayed, at the platform but out of service or just not find out an anything and stand around
6. Get on the train for the hour long journey (Provided no issues occurred then it could balloon to 2 hours). But station 3 the train is packed and I am sticking to people. The 23 idiots blaring music on their shitty iphone headphones the soundtrack to the journey and the smell of the hipster who rode to the station tantalizing my nose.
7. Arrive at the station and struggle to get off as it's so packed
8. Walk the 1.5km to work, get sweaty, get to work and start my day already worn out.
The return trip was largely the same except for not being able to fit on the first few trains, then being in the 'Metro group hug' all the way home.
I am pretty fit, etc and I had two instances where I passed out from the heat/pressure/smell
In winter, again much the same as summer but instead all the walks involved rain and the train was effectively an incubator for germs with humidity at 80% and for whatever reason, the temperature at about 27 even though everyone had heavy coats given it was winter.
Then... something amazing happened.... I was promoted and got a parking spot.
Now my journey is
1. Jump in my car, adjust the temp to 23, pop the seat warmer on
2. Tune in to triple M and start
3. Journey can take up to 2 hours, but I am comfortable, listening to what I want and there are no forced hugs.
The moral of the story is that no matter how amazing public transport is or will be, you will never see me on it again as it's easier to drive. I am on my own timetable and comfortable.
East West was needed, it is needed and it will become REALLY needed in the very near future. The key need is driven by out current inability to get goods and trades people from one side of the city to the other efficiently.
When you look the costs, you have to look at the benefits of increased productivity.
Lets assume that every morning, there are people stuck in traffic due to unnecessary congestion for an extra hour than if the journey was as quick as it can be.
Lets say 20,000 people. So each morning and every afternoon there is 40,000 hours waster in traffic.
Lets assume these people earn on average 30 bucks an hour. That means that every day there is $1.2million of productivity lost due to traffic, ONLY looking at peoples income.
How think the same for the business they work for, those who are self employed, and the goods value they are transporting.
It adds up to a pretty scarey number very quickly and the East West link would have gone a LONG way to significantly reducing that number.
Either way, staggering waste based solely on principal. Labor had to keep the inner city hipsters happy as that's how they got into power.
I've had a chat a few people around this topi and it seems those who oppose it are generally of the opinion that driving is a choice, and everyone should just catch public transport and/or ride a bike.
There are several challenges I have with this:
1. Tell that to the truckies and tradies who are stuck on the West Gate each morning.
2. Public transport is the alternative to driving, not the other way round.
After uni, my first job was in the city and every job since has been in the city. I live in Cranbourne and there is not businesses in my industry that way to I am forced to get to the city.
For 5 years, I used public transport.
In summer, this was my commute:
1. Leave my house and walk the 1km to the bus stop.
2. Hope the bus arrives on time
3. Hope my myki works
4. Take the 15min ride to the station, potentially already having people in my personal space
5. Arrive at the station and find out my train is cancelled, delayed, at the platform but out of service or just not find out an anything and stand around
6. Get on the train for the hour long journey (Provided no issues occurred then it could balloon to 2 hours). But station 3 the train is packed and I am sticking to people. The 23 idiots blaring music on their shitty iphone headphones the soundtrack to the journey and the smell of the hipster who rode to the station tantalizing my nose.
7. Arrive at the station and struggle to get off as it's so packed
8. Walk the 1.5km to work, get sweaty, get to work and start my day already worn out.
The return trip was largely the same except for not being able to fit on the first few trains, then being in the 'Metro group hug' all the way home.
I am pretty fit, etc and I had two instances where I passed out from the heat/pressure/smell
In winter, again much the same as summer but instead all the walks involved rain and the train was effectively an incubator for germs with humidity at 80% and for whatever reason, the temperature at about 27 even though everyone had heavy coats given it was winter.
Then... something amazing happened.... I was promoted and got a parking spot.
Now my journey is
1. Jump in my car, adjust the temp to 23, pop the seat warmer on
2. Tune in to triple M and start
3. Journey can take up to 2 hours, but I am comfortable, listening to what I want and there are no forced hugs.
The moral of the story is that no matter how amazing public transport is or will be, you will never see me on it again as it's easier to drive. I am on my own timetable and comfortable.
East West was needed, it is needed and it will become REALLY needed in the very near future. The key need is driven by out current inability to get goods and trades people from one side of the city to the other efficiently.
When you look the costs, you have to look at the benefits of increased productivity.
Lets assume that every morning, there are people stuck in traffic due to unnecessary congestion for an extra hour than if the journey was as quick as it can be.
Lets say 20,000 people. So each morning and every afternoon there is 40,000 hours waster in traffic.
Lets assume these people earn on average 30 bucks an hour. That means that every day there is $1.2million of productivity lost due to traffic, ONLY looking at peoples income.
How think the same for the business they work for, those who are self employed, and the goods value they are transporting.
It adds up to a pretty scarey number very quickly and the East West link would have gone a LONG way to significantly reducing that number.
your entire argument is summed up with this one line. I agree with you, we are so car dependent that every other choice is a minority option. Not building the tunnel would only be a good choice if alternatives are made available and usable within a reasonable timeframe.
Art Vanderlay
Hourly daily
It's 2015, why aren't we getting around like the Jetsons yet?
Yeah, wow.
There are two responses to jetstart: spend money on improving public transport and reducing your internal princess.
Don't mean to sound like (too much of) a dick here but there is a lot there that seems like a bit of a whinge that is hard to be sympathetic about:
- walk the 1km to the bus stop
- potentially already having people in my personal space
- idiots blaring music on their shitty iphone headphones
- the smell of the hipster
- I passed out from the heat/pressure/smell
- an incubator for germs
Sorry man but there's a pretty monumental amount of 'precious' going on there. Much of the rest of your problems are what extra spending on improving public transport would aim to fix. That's the whole point.
There are two responses to jetstart: spend money on improving public transport and reducing your internal princess.
Don't mean to sound like (too much of) a dick here but there is a lot there that seems like a bit of a whinge that is hard to be sympathetic about:
- walk the 1km to the bus stop
- potentially already having people in my personal space
- idiots blaring music on their shitty iphone headphones
- the smell of the hipster
- I passed out from the heat/pressure/smell
- an incubator for germs
Sorry man but there's a pretty monumental amount of 'precious' going on there. Much of the rest of your problems are what extra spending on improving public transport would aim to fix. That's the whole point.
Flow-Rider
Burner
It's time for you to leave city life and enjoy yourself :heh:
MARKL
Eats Squid
Sounds as though you needed the hug
Jesterarts
Likes Dirt
Improving public transport will never reduce the number of cars on the road to the point or reducing congestion.
Paris, London, Tokyo all have freakin' amazing public transport and underground systems. But regardless, peak-hour is gridlock.
In terms of internal princess, valid points. I was moreso pointing out that for some people, Public Transport will never be at a level that will make them want to use it.
A lot of people will choose to be precious because why on earth would anyone want to spend time in a situation they don't like?
Assuming my example, I commute 3 hours a day and this was about equal for PT and driving. So there is 780 hours, 32.5 days or a month.
So I have the choice of being in an environment that is more comfortable or less comfortable for a month every year. Being someone who it's self loathing, the choice is logical.
Unless public transport gets to a level where it's comfortable and runs so regular I don't need a timetable. Never going to be appealing for some people.
I do... it's because I never got a puppy as a child. You offering.
John U
MTB Precision
Infrastructure Australia, an independent body, set up to be non-political, rated the return on investment to be 49 cents per dollar invested.
You don't fix road congestion by building more roads.
The previous government wouldn't release details on the project because the numbers didn't stack up. And then one of them signed a side letter guaranteeing the project consortium a billion dollars in if the project got canned. So much unethical behavior from the Napthine government it is astounding. There needs to be an avenue for the unelected to get an enquiry up and running into underhanded behavior by politicians. This example is a prime candidate.
Daniel Andrews has done exactly what he said he would do. Uncommon for a politician these days. Other politicians should take note.
As for $680 million down the tubes Ridenparadise, I'd like to know where you got your numbers from?
What I have read is that the money that has been paid to the consortium has been for work done up to the point that the project was stopped. The figure is more like $330 million. The Napthine govt should foot the bill for this.
You don't fix road congestion by building more roads.
The previous government wouldn't release details on the project because the numbers didn't stack up. And then one of them signed a side letter guaranteeing the project consortium a billion dollars in if the project got canned. So much unethical behavior from the Napthine government it is astounding. There needs to be an avenue for the unelected to get an enquiry up and running into underhanded behavior by politicians. This example is a prime candidate.
Daniel Andrews has done exactly what he said he would do. Uncommon for a politician these days. Other politicians should take note.
As for $680 million down the tubes Ridenparadise, I'd like to know where you got your numbers from?
What I have read is that the money that has been paid to the consortium has been for work done up to the point that the project was stopped. The figure is more like $330 million. The Napthine govt should foot the bill for this.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
And I need a freeway from my house to work and then to my friends houses and my favorite bar too. What is your point?
Not going to go into details here as everyone else has chipped in. But it didn't stack up financially and there are better options. Public transport is one, but the obvious one is the missing link between western ring and eastlink at a fraction of the costs and disruption. The east west will not resolve traffic woes if you're going into the city (or through it). It will probably make it worse.
John U
MTB Precision
I think your issue is that you don't live close enough to work. That is a big problem for more and more people. I'm not saying it's possible, but how much better would it be for you if your workplace was just around the corner or if you could work from home a few days a week.
Governments should be doing more to decentralise. And they are doing something. The ATO have just built a massive building in Box Hill. It would be good to see more of that development in the satellite areas of cities.