Is this the right attitude towards mtb advocacy and trail maintenance?

[taibo]

I've been following this discussion on BMU and thought it should be thrown open to the wider mtb community.
http://www.bikesmoveus.com.au/showthread.php?t=3837


What are your thoughts?

This is not attempt at a shit fight between forums but an attempt to better understand each other, then maybe we can change the attitude of the MTB community

 

[taibo]

edited:too long

 

[g-fish]

I've already posted in the other thread (Nat.) so I won't again. Before we all go crazy and throw shit like monkeys, keep it civilized? Though BMU might have a rich boy stereotype. Farkininers come off as crazy agro motherf**. Don't feed the stereotypical, fire breathing, scaly dragon.

 

[martinpb]

Not really got time to go into this in well thought out detail right now but:

He makes a few good points -

There is more to trial work than digging - there is room for the people who's input is writing the letters, talking to land managers, facilitating meetings, raising money, building websites.

Digging should be more accessable. His point:
"Nor am i comfortable with going out to a trail where i think needs work done and start doing the work myself because i know that i am unskilled or qualified in that area and anything i do will most likely make it worse."
is one that i totally understand and symathise with and until i got chance to join up with some build days i wouldn't try to make changes. Inparticular reading some threads on RB where people are kicking up a stink about someone making changes to "their" trail

Points to disagree:
we'd be as well off riding crap trails if we could all get along nicely. I don't think this is a reasonable argument because MTB is a growing sport. The people coming into the sport are not only coming in from the youth ranks of racing, they are (re)entering later in life and from numerous avenues (the FFF and i were dicussing where all the new riders are coming from and came to the conclusion that they are coming from all sorts of angles - roadies/new golf, riding with their kids, fast bushwalking, bike paths on steroids to name just a few) - if we want to keep these people coming out to ride over that first 2-3 year period of off road riding, they will need to be riding good quality well maintained trails within easy reach (45 mins drive) of capital cities, otherwise we run the risk of loosing them as they stop having fun

Something of an aside - Rotorburn (or the other one which i'd never heard of until today) are only a very small part of the MTB community. On a build day at the weekend we had several people come past and ask how they could get involved - we pointed them here and they'd never heard of it. These were not people who'd only just put knobblies on their huffies - from appearances and the discussions we had with them they are long time riders with a keen interest in keeping the quailty of our local trails, both for themselves and to encourage others to use the tracks.

Sorry for the run on sentences and other terrible grammar

Martin

 

[Dozer]

It sounds to me as though this guy either has the guilts or people are hanging shit on him for not making it to the maintenance days. Either way, maybe his point of clubs creating maintenance days and setting them in advance so people can plan around it should stick.
To me, his post kind of states the obvious and isn't that much of a big deal for Rotorburners to read. I don't know the tempo of the site it was posted on but if people were to take offence to it then they should stick to driving their convertible around with their favorite leather gloves on and get off mountain bike trails.

 

[thecat]

Digging should be more accessable. His point:
"Nor am i comfortable with going out to a trail where i think needs work done and start doing the work myself because i know that i am unskilled or qualified

This is a very good point and most people haven't got a clue about proper building techniques. A lot of time people with the best intentions just make things worse.

However there is more to trail maintenance than digging new lines. Trimming back over growth, filling in ruts or even just moving fallen branches off the trail are all helpful

 

[martinpb]

This is a very good point and most people haven't got a clue about proper building techniques. A lot of time people with the best intentions just make things worse.

However there is more to trail maintenance than digging new lines. Trimming back over growth, filling in ruts or even just moving fallen branches off the trail are all helpful

This is something we're working on. The idea is to get to a point where there are 2-4 experienced(ish - i'm firmly in the ish bit myself) trail builders available to work EVERY Saturday and Sunday, at least over the spring-autumn period.

The idea being this is: rather than all of the people who know what they are doing turning up one day a month, spread them out and use them as facilitators of trail maintenance, as there seems to be a large number of people who would "help out if only..." (and i've been one of those for years for the very reasons that build days would: be announced too late/clash with other commitments/be cancelled at the last minute)

By spreading the experienced workers out, you create the opportunities for people to come and learn from them (and if not enough bodies turn up to build that huge berm that you've planned, as TheCat says - you just get a barrow, some soil and a couple of spades and go and fill in ruts (actually just had another thought while writing, if only a couple of people turn up, that is the ideal opportunity to do some one-on-one teaching of building skills, so that the new people can be added to the cardre of experienced(ish) builders))

 

[Big JD]

Precious

Nat hit it on the head.

To the OP - stop being so precious and just do what you can do. Forums are not the place to hang your dirty washing/ hurt feelings / percieved behavioural issues (believe me l know- made that mistake once). I feel guilty every-time l see Trav (trail builder) working away on the trails l ride so often - Youies -but l always stop and say hello and thank him for all his work. If during a ride there is damage to a trail/obstacles then we always take the time to fix it. If you come across some trail builders while on a ride and they give you a hard time then deal with it then - address the comments then and there or just ignore it. I understand you might not have the time to contribute to trail building due to work. Hell l am even more selfish - with two young kids l only get one opportunity a week for a good ride and hell l want to ride. So if Trav gave me a hard time - l would actually accept it - it is warranted because l don't help enough. Trav is not that sort of person but there are all types out there. If some young punk hassled me because l wont help him build some illegal DJ along the Yarra then - gain of salt it is no big deal. If someone hung some crap on you for not helping then - so be it or tough love.
You have been MTBing for 2.5 years and have 6500 posts on a forum. Imagine if you redirected some of that forum energy/time to some thing positive for the community - advocacy, assisting the trail builders with rosters/schedules (so you could turn up), clubs with costing/budgeting/fund raising/event coordination/etc - you would feel like you are contributing if that is important and could sleep easier at night. You seem like a very thorough individual - use your skills for good not evil. On the other hand - l have no interest in joining clubs / events / groups and would not race if you paid me - that is not what moves me re - MTB - but l would donate $$ to a club to maintain the trails l ride and spend big dollars on bikes/services/ tourism/local industries - l sleep fine thanks.
BMU vs RB - l just don't see any correlation/issue. This the first time l have heard about BMU and will be sure to check it out - but enough of the long winded woffle - step away from the keyboard- me included.
JD

 

[Nerf Herder]

Can't overcome self justification ... so stuff ém

The trail boss idea IMO is the most efficient ... you will always get a core group of people that will attend 99% of trail days and having smaller groups with a trail leader will cover more ground, and use the volley numbers more effectively.

I'll keep it simple.

No Dig ... No Ride.

No Email ... No Trail ... No Ride

No attend the one off NPWS and or Council meeting affecting your local trail and the trails in your state ... well ...

 

[ando_assi]

It is not the right attitude!!!!!!!!!

IT IS NOT the right attitude...

... IF you ride a free community resource often and don't give back, you are not doing the right thing by the rest of us.... SIMPLE!

If you ride somewhere where there is a great team of builders that have got it under control (ie. the youies), that is great, but you owe them a great deal of gratitude, and you really should be attempting to help them in any way you can so they don't feel like they HAVE to do it.

But in so many areas this is not the case, a core group of riders who aren't interested in "being builders" but want to ride on good MTB tracks end up having to do it all....

If you feel better telling yourself that your too busy!! or have a full time job (who doesn't) fine, but you are delusional!

I'm not saying that you should stop riding and spend all your time out there building, but if you have a regular riding destination, you should fire an email to the people who organize it (ie. PV or local council) and get involved (any way you can), FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT!!! Don't leave it up to somebody else, this is what is wrong with this world its all me me me me....

There is no excuse!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ivan]

Either way, maybe his point of clubs creating maintenance days and setting them in advance so people can plan around it should stick.p

This is the key.


I have recently tried to attend a few trail maintenance days, that were reported to start in the 'morning' and run all day. I have a busy work schedule and often can't turn up until early-mid afternoon, only to find no-one there. This is why maintenance needs to be well organised and advertised.

I have attended (fairly irregularly) trail building days in three cities, and the most organised ones always get the best turnout.

If you feel better telling yourself that your too busy!! or have a full time job (who doesn't) fine, but you are delusional!

Ha ha, get your hand off it. Some people do work 7 days a week, and rarely find the time to ride. My trails are 45 minutes drive from my house, and I've had the time to go riding twice in the last 3 months due to work. Are you suggesting that I should have spent that time doing trail maintenance instead?


I agree with the initial comments. Unless the property is private, or the club is the only one who has rights to use the land, then no-one should feel obligated to do maintenance to ride.

 

[ando_assi]

Ha ha, get your hand off it. Some people do work 7 days a week, and rarely find the time to ride. My trails are 45 minutes drive from my house, and I've had the time to go riding twice in the last 3 months due to work .

I also live 45 mins from my local trails but if u can make it to ride, every now and then you can make it to dig, but its not people that ride twice in 3 months that we are talking about, 8 times a year , it is the people that are there week in, week out (sometimes more).... and maybe you should contact your local club organize a group and offer to organize a dig day, i'm sure they would be able to organize something!

 

[Nerf Herder]

Ha ha, get your hand off it. Some people do work 7 days a week, and rarely find the time to ride. My trails are 45 minutes drive from my house, and I've had the time to go riding twice in the last 3 months due to work. Are you suggesting that I should have spent that time doing trail maintenance instead?

I don't think any of us are telling you to do this ... however, I presume in the last 2.5 years (equivalent to the original writer's riding experience) ... you haven't been working 7 days per week ... or even if you have you have put together a 3 or 4 line email to a relevant email campaign affecting your state or local trails ... or anything related to trail preservation.

As Flynny put it ... there is more to it then just shovelling dirt

 

[bikesarefun]

You have been MTBing for 2.5 years and have 6500 posts on a forum.
JD

Amazing. Fully amazing.

 

[ido09s]

I think trail maintenance days need to be alternated more to cater to more people. And the use of trail maintenence guru's being spread out is also a great point that was brought up as it will obviously allow more maintenance days to be run. Some people work Saturday mornings and cant attend Loftus build days (I use Loftus as thats mostly referred to over on BMU). Start alternating the times/days and you will get a cross section of riders who will turn up and not just the same people over and over who have that time in their schedule frr every Saturday

I wont go into detail but there is more to the blog post that Jing made than you guys have seen.

 

[Big JD]

I wont go into detail but there is more to the blog post that Jing made than you guys have seen.

I sure there is more to this story but holy crapper my head was about to explode reading through what was there.

I for one should spend more off my precious riding time digging and you can hold me to that - Trav just dont ask me to operate heavy machinery ok. Or can l drop a bottle of aged scotch around next time l make it out there?

JD

 

[martinpb]

I wont go into detail but there is more to the blog post that Jing made than you guys have seen.

I sure there is more to this story but holy crapper my head was about to explode reading through what was there.

I for one should spend more off my precious riding time digging and you can hold me to that - Trav just dont ask me to operate heavy machinery ok. Or can l drop a bottle of aged scotch around next time l make it out there?

JD

There's a build day at Lysterfield on Saturday...
and another 13th November

BTW JD - loved the point about the number of posts!

 

[Big JD]

you builders are bloody quick

There's a build day at Lysterfield on Saturday...
and another 13th November

BTW JD - loved the point about the number of posts!

I know l said you could hold me to it but this weekend???? OK if the weather doesnt stop it l will be there - gee there is alot of work to do out there - trails are f*cked - hopefully they can be built to handle the rain and traffic - and alittle more technical would be good with a bike wash, foot spa. Love the Lake Mountain to Marysville trail idea too - love to throw my sizable wieght (fat bastard) behind that one too.
Cheers
JD

 

[Cuthbert]

Trying to enforce a 'no dig, no ride' policy can have adverse impacts - I have seen a number of examples where people have tried this and it has only resulted in them alienating themselves to the point where they basically drive potential helpers away....

There will always be a minority doing the bulk of the work, and in my experience it seems they are typically happy to do that cause they get the benefits of riding their creation and for the most part are happy to share their work with others if its a known publicly accessible track. Noone should expect others to chip in and help out, although it is always appeciated when someone new chips in to lend a hand in any way.

However, that said, from someone who is involved in the behind the scenes trail advocacy work and also lifts a shovel now and then I find it greatlty dissappointing when riders winge about the lack of MTB access in their local area but haven't lifted a finger to help the cause. It's not hard to shoot off a quick email to the relevant Council or other authority in support of a campaign started by others. The other pet hate is the lack of consideration shown by riding tracks after heavy rain or by riding a section of trail/trail feature that is obviously closed for maintenance & hasn't had a chance to bed in yet. This costs those who actively maintain tracks an inordinant amount of time fixing damage that could easily have been prevented and also takes away from the time they have available to spend on other track improvements

 

[Tomas]

Seriously, can someone who has done a first year marketing, HR, PR or communications course come in and tell people how to engage with an audience and foster participation.

'You're doing it wrong' is an understatement.