Jongewaard wins Aus XC champs despite protest - what happened?

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
My original line of questioning was because, quite simply, to the best of my knowledge the penalty that's supposed to be dished out is disqualification, not a time penalty.
Akashra, for somebody pushing or grabbing hold of somebody the usual penalty would be relegation, with repeated incidences resulting in disqualification. However there are no specific guidelines in the MTBA Tech Regs.

Now while some of the riders have alleged that Chris did this thing at other points in the race (and rides like this regularly) it's not clear whether or not protests were lodged in the appropriate manor.
 

Megahead

Likes Bikes
This has got more drama than Gone with the Wind!

I didn't think there was much in this when I first saw the vid but now that all the facts are coming out......... That last line in your race report Ben sure says it all "Sorry mate but I'm on a mission out there". Very telling.
 

jathanas

Likes Bikes and Dirt
For anyone interested you can find my race report here: http://benhenderson.com.au/site/?p=293
Hey Ben,

Thanks for the link to your write-up.

Whilst I completely understand your feelings at the moment, negative thoughts and anger will not serve you in the long term.

I don't buy it that good guys finish last. Don't let this "incident" weaken your resolve to succeed.

Clear your mind and your legs will follow :)

Wishing you all the best in your next event.

Cheers, Jim
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Akashra, for somebody pushing or grabbing hold of somebody the usual penalty would be relegation, with repeated incidences resulting in disqualification. However there are no specific guidelines in the MTBA Tech Regs.

.
Just cause I was bored here's some of the rules being discussed

4.13.1. List of Penalties
4.13.1.1. Penalties can be imposed according to the nature of the offense and one or
more of the following can be used:
4.13.1.1.1. Verbal warning.
4.13.1.1.2. Fine. (Minimum $50 AUS).
4.13.1.1.3. Relegation of position (by one or more positions).
4.13.1.1.4. Time or points penalty.
4.13.1.1.5. Disqualification.
4.13.1.1.6. Suspension.
4.13.1.2. Disregard of these rules and regulations may result in any of the above
penalties being made.
4.13.1.3. Illegal repairs to the bike, change to the bike, unauthorized feeding or any
assistance received from any external source will result in disqualification.
4.13.1.4. Any maneuver with the intention of pulling a rider's jersey, or pulling orpushing a rider (by either the giver or the recipient of assistance), leaning on
another competitor or offering irregular assistance to a rider from another
team are all actions likely to give rise to relegation. Repeated offenses shall
render the riders involved liable to disqualification.
...

5.3.9. Riders must act in a sporting manner at all times and shall permit any faster rider
to overtake without obstruction at the earliest opportunity.
5.3.10. Any walking or running of the course is carried out in deference to any riders
still riding their bicycles.
5.3.11. The rider will be self-sufficient during the race and must carry all required
spare parts and tools to effect repairs during the race.
5.3.12. A rider cannot receive technical assistance from anybody including fellow
competitors, spectators or supporters except where expressly allowed by these
rules.
5.3.13. A rider may only change his/her bike or receive any technical assistance
between races.
5.3.14. A rider must not use offensive or abusive language, act in an un-sportsman like
manner, be disrespectful to the officials or ignore the race regulations....

7.2.8. During feeding no physical contact between feeders and riders is allowed. This
will be considered as technical assistance.
7.2.9. It is not permitted for a feeder to place water bottles on to the bike or place food
and water bottles in the rider’s pockets. All food and bottles must be handed to
the rider.
7.2.10. Water may be poured onto the rider only if permission has been given by the
Chief Commissaire before the event. At no time is it permitted to pour water
onto any part of the competitor's bike.
7.2.11. It is forbidden for feeders to run beside their rider in the feed zone.

9.7.7. Technical re-supply for elite category riders is permitted but can only take
place in predetermined pit areas provided by the organizers and approved by
the TD. There must be an adequate number of pit areas. The pit zones may be
an adjunct to the feed zones. Riders will be able either to stock up on spares,
or to carry out repairs on the spot. Technical re-supply is limited to supplying
riders with small tools for repairs (such as chain tools, tyre levers, spanners,
pliers) or spare parts (such as inner tube, tyre, chain, cables or inflation
devices). Any rider receiving re-supply outside the approved and defined pit
areas will be pulled out of the race and a DNF recorded.
9.7.8. Recreational racers and riders who are not entered in the elite race category
are permitted to receive outside assistance from other racers.

12.11. Protests
12.11.1. All protests are to be made to the race director in accordance with the
procedures set out in the current MTBA Technical Regulations.
12.11.2. All protests must be made, in writing, either within 15 minutes of the
completion of the event or within 15 minutes of the provisional results being
posted (whichever is the sooner), together with the fee as prescribed by MTBA.
Should the protest be successful, the fee will be returned.
12.11.3. All protest appeals are subject to the provisions in section 5.6
4.13.1.4 is pretty clear cut about pulling jerseys and bike and general argybargy but gets a little wishy washy when it comes to the penalty for it likely to give rise to relegation... I guess the comm was erring on the side of caution as the wording is pretty piss weak and no body wants to take away a riders national championship win with out solid, unarguable back up from the regs.

of the other complaints made here about Tech assistance and blocking riders while pushing with a flat, well complaints made here mean nothing if a formal protest was not lodged within 15min of the events conclusion or 15min within posting of provisional results

It's a shitty situation all around as it seems Ben may have been robbed of a good champs finish and Chris's win is now marred in questions over his sportsmanship on the course as well as his behaviour off it... But as others have said at least it's got people talking about elite leave XCO
 
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akashra

Eats Squid
Akashra, for somebody pushing or grabbing hold of somebody the usual penalty would be relegation, with repeated incidences resulting in disqualification. However there are no specific guidelines in the MTBA Tech Regs.
Yeah, it's the repeat incidents bit that gets it - I hadn't intended to bring it up here, but others did, so I guess it's out now - at the time I wanted to know if this had been included or considered in the protest and the penalty applied. Specifically, I had been made aware of at least three separate incidents within the race involving CJ.

However, the jury of non-commissaires decided I had no right to ask :)
 
Hey Ben,

Thanks for the link to your write-up.

Whilst I completely understand your feelings at the moment, negative thoughts and anger will not serve you in the long term.

I don't buy it that good guys finish last. Don't let this "incident" weaken your resolve to succeed.

Clear your mind and your legs will follow :)

Wishing you all the best in your next event.

Cheers, Jim
Thanks Jim and many others for your support and comments. Indeed I will put this all behind me and continue on my journey, a stronger and more motivated person.

Chris has for many years been someone who's performance I desire to emulate. I have a great respect for what he has been through and the determination and dedication required to reach the level he has. As I discussed with Chris only hours after the race, I do wish him all the best. In fact he raises the bar for my performance and everyone else's out there. He gives me something to aim for.

I only intended to promote understanding of what happened, keeping my emotions out of it and allowing things to take their course.

Thanks again for people's supportive comments. It hasn't been easy. I'm looking forward to racing Chris and the others at Oceania's next month and I will be preparing again to do my best on that day.

Ben
 

GeurieMTB

Likes Dirt
Well done and very well said Ben. Good Luck!


Thanks to Flynny for saving me the job of opening up the MTBA regs. In relation to the penalty a lot of it comes down to the protests lodged.

If Bens was the only protest and assuming there was no video evidence, the penalty could be reasonable. If Lachlan protested re the blocking and/or the jersey pulling then no, totally inappropriate response from the Coms. But they cant be everywhere and see everything on the track, so benefit of the doubt there. But there does appear to be a Comm in the technical area while CJ's mechanic pumps up his tire. My interpretation of 9.7.7 is that tools and spares can be handed to the rider to use, am i wrong in that interpretation? Is it comon practise at this level for mechanics to use/install the spares/tools?

Obviously im not an elite level racer and have rarely watched the pits during those races i do get to so open to advice on this. I am however one of the poor fools whove signed up as club level Commissaires following the MTBA ruling recently

So in summary Australia's National Champion;
1, contravened 4.13.1.4 - "manhandling" Ben, and was penalised
2, contravened 5.3.10 - "blocking" Lachlan, and was unpunished
3, reportedly contravened 4.13.1.4 "manhandling" (again) Lachlan (?) and was unpunished
4, contravened 9.7.7 (I stand to be corrected on this one) - "outside assistance", and was unpunished
all in the one race, was lightly punished, and was awarded the green and gold hoops

OUCH!

But whats to be done? Rule 12.11.2 states that all protests must be lodged within 15 minutes. Do we need to introduce video refs at this level?
 

slowK

Likes Dirt
Thanks Jim and many others for your support and comments. Indeed I will put this all behind me and continue on my journey, a stronger and more motivated person.

Chris has for many years been someone who's performance I desire to emulate. I have a great respect for what he has been through and the determination and dedication required to reach the level he has. As I discussed with Chris only hours after the race, I do wish him all the best. In fact he raises the bar for my performance and everyone else's out there. He gives me something to aim for.

I only intended to promote understanding of what happened, keeping my emotions out of it and allowing things to take their course.

Thanks again for people's supportive comments. It hasn't been easy. I'm looking forward to racing Chris and the others at Oceania's next month and I will be preparing again to do my best on that day.

Ben
Hi Ben,

That was a very mature and restrained blog entry. Good luck in the future - you've won a new fan here.
 

serowe

Likes Dirt
A question I'll ask (with no 'incident' in mind) - does a protest have to be lodged by a competitor for any of these breaches (i.e. those stipulated in the rules) to be investigated and a decision made about them?

IOW can an official of the event bring up an incident and have that 'incident' investigated? Official being a marshal, commisaire, MTBA rep etc. In most other sporting categories this can, and does, happen - MTB'ing though?

And, if they can, are they subject to the same time limits for the 'protest' to be lodged?
 

Mr Pants

skanky media ho
The footage...

Hi all,

I'm the producer of the TV coverage for SBS TV and soon to be found stuck to the front cover of AMB in DVD form.

I've looked at the footage frame by frame in its original resolution and further enlarged as well. The sequence of events:

- Jongewaard accelerates to pass Ben
- Ben counter accelerates
- In the narrowing of the track (next to the bunting) Ben holds his line and there is (as far as I can see) no contact.
- Ben moves his body to the right toward Chris, Chris hits a bump which causes his rear wheel to buck him up and the rear wheel also moves to the left by a couple of inches. Dust is raised from the wheel losing traction.
- Chris' elbow moves up (but still connected to the bars) toward Ben but this could be because of the bump he hit and I can't see any contact.
- Chris turns back toward the track after being deflected by the bump, removes his hand from the bars, uses his elbow to jab Ben in the bicep (but doesn't touch his bars)
- Ben's bars turn to the right and he overbalances to the left.

I make no comment on this, but that's what I can see in the source video on a 20" screen.

<insert gratuitous plug> Don't forget to watch all the action on SBS Cycling Central, Sunday 5pm.
 

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
Serowe., in answer to your question, yes.

Marshals and other officials could notify of an incident and in most cases would expect to do so right away. Depending on the incident I would expect action could be taken right away, or simply kept on notice in case a protest was lodged.

In practice most marshals (and this includes the World Cup and Champs at Stromlo) would have very little idea of what is and is not permitted in racing would probably be hesitant to report anything, except in case of the most obvious infraction.

The time constraint is so to get the presentation and the results out in a timely manor after the event. Do you really want to have to wait 2 hours for the result to be decided? Remember this is 15 minutes after the interim results have been posted not when the winner finished.
 
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serowe

Likes Dirt
Serowe., in answer to your question, yes.

Marshals and other officials could notify of an incident and in most cases would expect to do so right away. Depending on the incident I would expect action could be taken right away, or simply kept on notice in case a protest was lodged.

In practice most marshals (and this includes the World Cup and Champs at Stromlo) would have very little idea of what is and is not permitted in racing would probably be hesitant to report anything, except in case of the most obvious infraction.
What would there responsibility be, then, if they see something like this (using this as an example this time) - are they 'supposed' to report it or only if a protest is lodged? (No - not digging up anything, just clarifying in my own mind because of the differences between MTB events and sports I have been involved in since the early 70's where an official has a duty and responsibility to report such incidents regardless of whether the competitors do so or not).
 

alchemist

Manly Warringah MTB Club
In this case here what did they see? Did they see CJ grab Ben's bars - in which case I think they probably should. Or were they watching elsewhere and heard a noise and turned around to see Ben (and I mean no disrespect to Ben here) having crashed and having a hissy fit - in which case maybe not.

There's been a lot of comments from riders in this thread and elsewhere about what 'officials' should and should not do. But in the end very few riders are prepared to step up and bear the burden of officialdom
 
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