Manitou Swinger 4 way questions

[FigBo0T]

I'm playing with one on a '96 SC Heckler. Can anybody explain the differences between 3-way, 4-way, and 6-way? I've done a couple of hours searching, including a few threads here, but haven't found a real explanation.
I was going to ask how to set the thing up too, but finally found a good explanation for a 3-way setup on a 10 year old forum post, which seemed to work a treat on the 4-way. It's holding air, not leaking oil, sitting right on 25% sag when I sit on the bike

Also, is there a secret to unscrewing the shock pump without letting air escape? I had to overfill to allow for the loss on disconnection. Took a few attempts to get it right.
This is my first experience with bicycle shock absorbers. Be kind. Or brutal. We're swinging 4 ways.

Link to the post that explains setup better than anything I found in the Manitou archives.

Manitou Swinger 3 way - setup advice needed! | Singletrack Magazine Forum

Singletrack Magazine

singletrackworld.com

 

[Scotty675]

No help with the fork but the pump letting air out when removed is normal, you will hear the air in the hose escaping not the air in the fork or shock, when you reinstall the pump it has to prime the hose first so pressure will read lower.

 

[rowdyflat]

Yeah some air leaks out as it is at pressure in the hose connection, dont worry.
I always thought the name Swinger was a bit rude.
3,4,6 ways refers to the adjustments high + low speed compression + rebound damping , platform etc

 

[fatboyonabike]

when you unscrew the shock pump, it will back seat the schrader valve (close off) before you have fully unscrewed it from the shock.
as S675 said, it is the remaining air trapped between the pump and the closed shock valve that you hear when you disconnect
hope this helps

 

[FigBo0T]

Excellent. Thanks guys, that actually makes sense. I think I can relax a bit now.

 

[FigBo0T]

3,4,6 ways refers to the adjustments high + low speed compression + rebound damping , platform etc

Cheers. So the 4-way has an air valve on the SPV, another on the main piston (both need to be charged). I assume one is compression, the other rebound .... and it has a blue knob/screw which I've found adjusts rebound speed. What's the 4th way?

 

[moorey]

Cheers. So the 4-way has an air valve on the SPV, another on the main piston (both need to be charged). I assume one is compression, the other rebound .... and it has a blue knob/screw which I've found adjusts rebound speed. What's the 4th way?

Possibly just refers to spring preload.

 

[_______]

does this help?

Manitou Swinger 4 Way shock review

A great suspension control cure for older bikes

www.bikeradar.com

more importantly, is this your shock?

or this?

https://manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/08/2004-Swinger-Owners-Manual.pdf

from my 5 minutes reading those two and your forum finding it looks like you can:
set your air pressure (I assume it's not coil), thanks moorey
set your rebound with the blue dial you mentioned
set the air pressure behind the internal floating piston in the piggyback ("on the SPV")
set the volume of the air chamber side of the IFP (this is the Extra 4th Way over the 3 way, 6 way adds hi/low speed compression as well)

the last two might be a lot like a weak compression lockout: one adjusts the threshold force required to blow through the lockout (air pressure), the other how rapidly the lockout reengages once blown through (volume), since all it's really doing is letting the oil in the damper be moved by the (fairly firm) compression stack rather than go through it once you hit a certain force (actually first time derivative of force, yes pedants, snore, go ride your 5th Element...)

try working out how hard you have to hit it at your 70ish psi SPV minimum to get to half travel with it set for sag. Put 30% more air than that main chamber pressure in the SPV chamber and it should take that much force to get past the SPV near the sag point (eg seated pedalling), then screw in the chamber volume adjuster til it gives you that platform out of the saddle. Too hard, start again with less pressure than 30% more than main chamber or vice versa.

^This is a total guess, tell me if I happen to be right

 

[moorey]

Plan B. Pick up a cheap, used air shock.

 

[rowdyflat]

5 th element was revolutionary in its day though a bit unreliable and lead to platform shocks and the Manitou Swinger .
It was also the name of a brilliant Luc Besson film and even though it had Bruce Willis who is funny but one dimensional , it was fun some of the CGI was amazing especially the 3 dimensional city air traffic.

 

[FigBo0T]

does this help?

Manitou Swinger 4 Way shock review

A great suspension control cure for older bikes

www.bikeradar.com

more importantly, is this your shock?

or this?

https://manitoumtb.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/08/2004-Swinger-Owners-Manual.pdf

from my 5 minutes reading those two and your forum finding it looks like you can:
set your air pressure (I assume it's not coil), thanks moorey
set your rebound with the blue dial you mentioned
set the air pressure behind the internal floating piston in the piggyback ("on the SPV")
set the volume of the air chamber side of the IFP (this is the Extra 4th Way over the 3 way, 6 way adds hi/low speed compression as well)

the last two might be a lot like a weak compression lockout: one adjusts the threshold force required to blow through the lockout (air pressure), the other how rapidly the lockout reengages once blown through (volume), since all it's really doing is letting the oil in the damper be moved by the (fairly firm) compression stack rather than go through it once you hit a certain force (actually first time derivative of force, yes pedants, snore, go ride your 5th Element...)

try working out how hard you have to hit it at your 70ish psi SPV minimum to get to half travel with it set for sag. Put 30% more air than that main chamber pressure in the SPV chamber and it should take that much force to get past the SPV near the sag point (eg seated pedalling), then screw in the chamber volume adjuster til it gives you that platform out of the saddle. Too hard, start again with less pressure than 30% more than main chamber or vice versa.

^This is a total guess, tell me if I happen to be right

I appreciate the effort you put into that. I don't know what I was reading from Manitou, but it wasn't that PDF. Now I see the 4th, 5th and 6th ways. Thanks mate.

It seems I've managed to do a half decent job of setup, without being aware of the volume adjust, but now I know about it, I'll have to play with it, and let you know.

 

[FigBo0T]

Plan B. Pick up a cheap, used air shock.

It is an air shock. Do I need to go coil, bro?

 

[moorey]

It is an air shock. Do I need to go coil, bro?

Oops. Thought an old coil banger like mine.

 

[FigBo0T]

Oops. Thought an old coil banger like mine.

The bike originally had a coil. Spanky replaced it in '08, I think.
You were still right in theory though (I think) the volume adjust looks like it does the job of preloading? This witchcraft is all brand new to me. I've always had hardtails.

 

[safreek]

It is an air shock. Do I need to go coil, bro?

Bbrrooo, you know the answer to that. Real men use coil. Gaaarn do it

 

[_______]

preload on coil = set air pressure
coil selection (spring rate) on coil = set air pressure or, if you're lucky enough, set air pressure AND air chamber volume ("bottomless tokens/rings", "IRT" etc.)
they just aren't 1:1 translatable. keeps shock tuners in business

The volume behind the ifp (SPV in this case) has more to do with the damping than the sag (which is the only thing you set with coil preload, c.f. Bear from Dirtworks' many, well publicised, rants about spring binding back in the day (including one epic 45 minute bollocking down the phone to/of me... fun memories... tear up). Yes kids, you can jackhammer your shock eye clean off the shaft if you're trying to avoid buying a heavier spring by winding that ring a few turns farther...). It's a neat feature, but quite a nerdy one.

If you care to go down the shock tuning rabbit hole I'm happy to get my mad hat out, but for the time being if you're happy with it based on your tuning, just ride the bastard.

Keep a notebook of all your setting changes as you go to help you learn (or just to reset after service/the local gremlins play with it). If/when you pop your rebound o-ring (the 5th Element preferred method of sepuku, slurping on extension) remember that a damper service will sort that out easily and "that was too much SPV pressure" (my 5thE is still waiting on this but one day... one day!!! old man shakes fist at cloud)

 

[FigBo0T]

If you care to go down the shock tuning rabbit hole I'm happy to get my mad hat out, but for the time being if you're happy with it based on your tuning, just ride the bastard.

Cheers. I'm going with the 'ride the bastard' theory for now. It feels good to me. Will leave tuning until I'm more familiar with the whole bouncy arse concept.