Manly Dam Works Feedback

[thecat]

Man i would pay to see you say that to Rob or some of the other guys on nobmobs face whom have put so much effort into legalizing the Northern Beaches Mountain Biking scene.

There is no doubt that the publication of "secret" trails and the promotion of "hot laps" was one of (that's "one of" not "all of") the factors that brought on the ire of some factions of the NPWS that lead to a clamping down of unathorised trail use in the area.

Rob himself would admit that, ask him how often he get contacted with complaints from rangers over something they've read on the site.

Is that a bad thing?

Short term? yes.
NPs decided to get busy enforcing the no ride policy on trail otherwise not thought about or that they were happy to turn a blind eye too. This means some poeple get fined and otherwise suitable trails get shut down.

Long term? I don't think so

Robs persistent agitation on the mater has lead to more high level talks and bought about agreements that there needs to be an agreement to agree.

With more and more people riding in the bush in metropolitan areas there needs to be a focus on trails that arn't just ad hoc, turn a blind eye, hope it all works but rather properly designed and maintained for riding.

We need people like Rob agitating for change.

As a club person I know a hell of a lot of my time is already spoken for and tbh clubs are in a position where they need to keep on the good side of land managers so agitating them isn't high on our list.

That said there have been many people working on better trail access for a long time. Robs recent efforts have at least brought more focus on that.

 

[Oliver.]

I have some feedback:

Who the fuck built those stairs right at the end of the loop?

Nearly binned it OTB coming into that today, after having not ridden it for months.

 

[ido09s]

I have had a small stack on that part. It was minor but had the stairs not been there i would not have grazed my shin and damaged my pushbike.

I agree the stairs probably need to be there for the walkers but maybe they would heve been better placed on the inside of the corner, instead of the outside as you would be less likely to fall onto them if placed there

 

[hawkeye]

Stairs are not necessary

Placement of those stairs IN the trail is harebrained and negligent. They do not need to be there. About 10-20m east, there is a section of trail that borders the private property fenceline that is now signed "no bikes". Why can't walkers be redirected that way? Would have been cheaper, and will save them defending a lawsuit for misfeasance.

It does not surprise me that we already have two incidents of injuries reported among forum members directly attributable to this stupid structure.

Once my hand is healed (got knocked off my bike last week intentionally by a car), Rob R and I have a plan to eliminate the risk.

 

[nrthrnben]

Placement of those stairs IN the trail is harebrained and negligent. They do not need to be there. About 10-20m east, there is a section of trail that borders the private property fenceline that is now signed "no bikes". Why can't walkers be redirected that way? Would have been cheaper, and will save them defending a lawsuit for misfeasance.

It does not surprise me that we already have two incidents of injuries reported among forum members directly attributable to this stupid structure.

Once my hand is healed (got knocked off my bike last week intentionally by a car), Rob R and I have a plan to eliminate the risk.

Hope you get better soon mate, and good work with the plan, let me know if you need any help

 

[raintonr]

Check your facts

Just as Nobmob got all the tracks the NPWS turned a blind eye to, that were being ridden shut down recently by trying to lobby NPWS for legitimacy, I am sure although well intentioned, what you are trying to do is not in our best interests in the long run.

Instead of speculating on why the local trails were closed why don't people here look at the current situation and think what they can do about it?

They can lobby the authorities. They can be courteous and law abiding. They can turn the poor image mountain bike riders have in some eyes around if they try.

Now, I doubt this will be good enough for some, so will say this about the course of events that lead to trail closures:

I have it, in person, straight from a director of National Parks that the final straw for them was seeing a van from a local bike store parked top of what some people refer to as the Bahai Temple track and regarded the blatant use of this trail as a step too far. This track is too steep to be sustainable, contains artificial structures and ends in what is a bog most of the time. Instead of being happy with what they had (trails in the local area that had existed for many years and that riding had been accepted on) certain individuals chose to build such trails and ride them in such an indiscreet manner than NPWS had no option but to take action.

As for web sites (such as NoBMoB) that spread information on trails: anyone who thinks this was the first time riding in these areas was brought to the attention of NPWS is a fool. Hugh Flower's book on Sydney rides had been available in many bike stores for many years prior to that. NPWS staff have known exactly where bikes are being ridden for many years. They know this because they see the trails and they see the tyre marks. They patrol these areas widely, this is their job. I can vouch for their diligence in this matter with the following story... some time ago I was out on a training ride. I happened to ride a firetrail that is seldom used and found a bunch of DH riders alongside this trail riding some illegal stuff they had built. This particular trail was never discussed on NoBMoB and as far as I know no-one knew about it. However, about the same time I was called by NPWS staff to ask if I knew anything about said trail or who built it. No on-line discussion but still they knew. Get the point?

As for 'Hot Laps': there is nothing illegal about being a sportsman and wanting to better oneself. There is nothing illegal about comparing how you go in your chosen sport with others. I have only ever seen a speed limit posted once on a NPWS managed trail, and IIRC this was 50km/h so would have been rather had to break (it was uphill) so there's nothing illegal at averaging 20 or even 30km/h along a trail. If we removed the 'Hot Laps' section of NoBMoB do you think people would stop timing themselves and trying to improve on those times? Do you think that people wouldn't discuss those times in forums? All the 'Hot Laps' section does is make it easier for this discussion and comparisons to happen. If you don't agree with it, look away or don't use it, but don't kid yourself that MTB isn't a sport to some (to most it's just a form of recreation) and timing and comparisons are not going to happen.

 

[ido09s]

I time myself and compare my lap times with others every single time i ride. I am far from being competitive in doing so, i just like to know that my fitness and riding ability is improving.

 

[Nerf Herder]

As for web sites (such as NoBMoB) that spread information on trails: anyone who thinks this was the first time riding in these areas was brought to the attention of NPWS is a fool. ...

I agree, (also with respect to level of trail knowledge that land managers have). I was lectured for riding a secret track ... with the premise that "we don't want the man to find these tracks, given all the hard work builders had put in ..." etc etc ... then at the end "secret" hidden sniggle there are two signs about Fox baiting ... Fark ... its real secret aye. The only reason the track hasn't been closed is that it is very well hidden from the non riding public, so allows land managers to turn their blind eye.

Back on Topic ... my thanks to those agitating ... its sad that we will likely lose trails in the short term, but if successful, Legitimate trails will be infinitely more satisfying then this stealth culture we have now ... and a listing of legal trails can only make it easier for new entrants into the sport.

 

[outtacontrol]

The logs in both sections at start of allambie downhill and middle are a complete joke,the stairs near the end are dangerous no matter how good a rider you are, and if you think you are that good of a rider that they wont effect you, well, they will sooner or later, even the pros come off. I would like anyone that witnesses one of those sharp pointy stairs going into someones face or back or whatever stand up and say, "its not that dangerous", your wrong...they are dangerous,and both sections of logs as well as being kinda dangerous, remove the fun and flow from two sweet sections of trail.

I live in Townsville, and at the risk of incurring the wrath of some, don't come come to ride here if you are worried by those stairs.

Our trails are on the side of a rocky mountain, and while they are an excellent example of sustainable trails, those steps are less technical than our easiest sections.

It's mountain biking, by it's very nature it's going to be dangerous. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

There is a thing called common sense, use it when deciding what you are comfortable riding.

 

[raintonr]

I live in Townsville, and at the risk of incurring the wrath of some, don't come come to ride here if you are worried by those stairs.

If we're still talking about the steps coming down to the hyrdo lab then the issue is this:

- There didn't used to be any steps, or boards or anything in this area. There were some nasty roots and a pipe to catch you out. The unwary could easily OTB there. Just another natural(ish) obstacle - I actually preferred it this way.
- Then the council added a boardwalk with sticks and stuff placed either site to keep you on that. This was a step backwards as it's not natural terrain and very slippery in the wet.
- Then the council built some stupid box steps next to the very slippery boards that have very dangerous pointy corners.

Basically, it used to be harder, but actually safer and by adding the steps the council have introduced an unnecessary hazard.

To make matters worse they have since admitted this is a problem but won't do anything about it. They say that the plan is to have riders bypass this section altogether, riding a few metres away. I cry BS at this, because if that was the plan why didn't they build this bypass before putting in the steps that they know are hazardous to riders?

I have offered to get some volunteers together and fix the safety problems they introduced but was told that volunteer labour was not as expeditious as using contractors (even though they couldn't actually say when a contractor would be able to fix the problem). This would have been fixed months ago if they let volunteers sort it out.

They are either waiting for someone to get seriously hurt so they can say how dangerous the place is and shut it down or get slapped with a law suite as they have admitted the dangers and done nothing about it. Yes, MTB is a dangerous sport, but land managers have a duty of care. Eg. if they build a trail directly off a cliff (or put a hazard directly next to the trail) they may well be liable for injuries that result from this.

 

[outtacontrol]

If we're still talking about the steps coming down to the hyrdo lab then the issue is this:

Eg. if they build a trail directly off a cliff

I haven't ridden there, but had a look at the photo posted.

Think you're drawing a long bow with your comparison.

I can't for the life of me see what the hysteria is about. Yeah, sure the steps have a square edge on them. So do most rocks that I know of, and there are shitloads of them next to trails. If a rider is not confident with riding the steps, there is a perfectly smooth timber ramp to ride instead.

Sure if you fall off coming down the ramp, you could possibly hurt yourself on the steps, but most times you fall off there will be things you can hurtyourself on.
And really, if you have trouble riding down a smooth timber ramp, you shouldn't be riding a MTB.

I think reading between the lines, people are more pissed off because there seems to be friction between the council and MTB community. I'll give you a tip guys, we are a fringe sport and we won't always get what we won't, so build a bridge and get over it.

Be thankful you have places to ride at all, because some people are not that lucky.

 

[raintonr]

I haven't ridden there...

Perhaps you could go and take a look then?

If a rider is not confident with riding the steps, there is a perfectly smooth timber ramp to ride instead.

You're not meant to ride the steps. They are for walkers. The boards can be very slippery under certain conditions, whereas the underlying terrain (as I previously described) was not.

To sum up, if you still don't get it: the land manager has created an unnecessary hazard, without consultation from the number one user group on this trail, then admitted they made a mistake and there is a problem but won't fix it. I think there's plenty there to be upset about.

Taking a step backwards though: the underlying issue is that there used to be regular maintenance days on this trail and now there are not. So we used to do this kind of work ourselves and now we are not allowed to. The inappropriate works that are done just exacerbate this. That is what everyone is so annoyed about.

 

[outtacontrol]

Perhaps you could go and take a look then?

As I said in my previous post, I live in Townsville NQ. I will be down there in May and look forward to running the gauntlet

I understand the issue, I suppose due to the super technical trails up here, we just have a different view of what constitutes difficult or dangerous. As I said that section would be the easiest section on one of our trails, and yes they are ridden by women and children.

Obviously you guys are unhappy that the council have built something that you did not want. Unfortunately , it's not a perfect world.

You could always just grow a set

 

[dain2772]

I can't for the life of me see what the hysteria is about. Yeah, sure the steps have a square edge on them. So do most rocks that I know of, and there are shitloads of them next to trails. If a rider is not confident with riding the steps, there is a perfectly smooth timber ramp to ride instead.

The problem is that there were no steps before, and someone has added them for no reason. We all appreciated that riding is dangerous, even riding next to steep slopes and cliffs - but would people think it was a good idea to dig out a cliff or very steep slope, cover it with sharp rocks next to an existing trail for no good reason??

 

[outtacontrol]

would people think it was a good idea to dig out a cliff or very steep slope, cover it with sharp rocks next to an existing trail for no good reason??

Once again, pretty sure looking at the photo, that's not exactly the same as what's there.

 

[thecat]

I understand the issue,

No,obviously you don't.

The issue isn't how technical or not the section of trail is the issue is that it use to be a mid tech section on natural terrain. It was dumbed down with boardwalks and then made hazardous but placing poorly thought out steps with pointy bit poking up in the crash zones. There is a big difference between a hazard and a risk.

Imagine if your land manager took your fun bit of trail and dumbed it down with board walks whilst actually making it more dangerous if you did come off due to those board walks being as slippery as snot in the wet

 

[VTSS350]

As I said in my previous post, I live in Townsville NQ. I will be down there in May and look forward to running the gauntlet

I understand the issue, I suppose due to the super technical trails up here, we just have a different view of what constitutes difficult or dangerous. As I said that section would be the easiest section on one of our trails, and yes they are ridden by women and children.

Obviously you guys are unhappy that the council have built something that you did not want. Unfortunately , it's not a perfect world.

You could always just grow a set

Mate you have no idea!

You dont even live in the same state and have never ridden the track.

We have super techy trails to, but the manly dam track is for everyone to ride. The timber ramp is slippery wet or dry and then you have a set of stairs to catch you out if you get it wrong.

Why would you even bother posting

 

[outtacontrol]

Mate you have no idea!

You dont even live in the same state and have never ridden the track.

We have super techy trails to, but the manly dam track is for everyone to ride. The timber ramp is slippery wet or dry and then you have a set of stairs to catch you out if you get it wrong.

Why would you even bother posting

Because it astounds me the stuff that people will bitch about.

I think you guys are missing my point, You should be grateful the land mangager lets you use the land at all, let alone spend money (albeit misguided) on the trails for you.

All your bitching will do is get them to change their mind.

Like I said before, ok the changes don't look flash, but we are supposed to be mountain bikers, if a timber ramp gets you shaking in your boots, you have bigger problems than me calling you out.

 

[nrthrnben]

Obviously you guys are unhappy that the council have built something that you did not want. Unfortunately , it's not a perfect world.

You could always just grow a set

Seriously mate, stick to Townsville topics, you haven't ridden it and you don't know the local issues/scene. Yes you may have a "gnarly" track up there that teeters on the edge of a mountain (which most mountain bike tracks do) but this doesn't mean you can downplay a risk on our local. If someone built an unnecessary obstacle that significantly increased newbie danger and reduced the fun of your local trail, would you be happy? didn't think so. The last thing we need is unnecessary bad press from an "unnecessary" man made risk!.

 

[VTSS350]

Like I said before, ok the changes don't look flash, but we are supposed to be mountain bikers, if a timber ramp gets you shaking in your boots, you have bigger problems than me calling you out.

It doesnt worry me at all. I have raced at state level for years, but the Dam track is suposed to be for all levels.

This is what you seem to be missing you TOOL. I have seen familys fiding there. Yes mum, dad and the kids. This section is very dangerous for beginers and for those with a low skill level.

We all greatly appreciate the fact that we have such a great legal track to ride but it doesnt mean that we have to be quiet when a dangerous mistake is made.

No shut your hole!