McFlow trails and the decreasing diversity of trails

s.dogg

Likes Dirt
These flow trails you are talking about are all built by paid companies. Using a machine to build "sustainable" trails is much quicker, thus cheaper than using lots of guys. As much as the crews would want to make the trail as fun as possible, they also need to make money.
Also most of these trails have to be built this way as there is usually a very limited budget allowed for future maintenance. The trail needs to be built so it wears well. Yeah it would be great for the crews just to rough in a line and let it get ridden in as they are usually amazing fun. But then who is going to come back and fix the issues that come from riding it in?

If you want to ride natural old school trails, go build them. They were illegal to build back then and are still illegal now. So is it just riders wanting to ride fun trails but not putting the work in to build them that is the problem?

And just to put it out there, i had avoided riding copperhead for a long time due to online reviews. I went and rode it a few weeks ago and liked it! Fast, loose and just good fun in a train of riders. Of course its not the best trail at buller but its still alright and worth a spin down.
 

Honzo15

Likes Dirt
Flow trails have their place but this space is in bike parks. They are nice to work on some of your techniques like body position or cornering. For me they are boring otherwise. Coming from a European background and riding since 20 years now, I grew up riding all kind of trails but none of them had berms. Dont get me wrong, berms are fucking fun but there are now people out there that A cant ride a flat corner properly and B even worse complain about built trails that dont have berms. Serrata and Gahnia here in Sydney are two good examples. These two new trails arent flow trails, they are technical, they are steep in parts and they dont bore me even after riding them the 20th time. BUT as soon as they were built people started complaining that they are too technical, that they dont flow, that they dont have berms. For gods sake learn how to ride a bike and if theres a trail you dont feel comfortable riding dont fucking ride it and/or better ride it slowly and improve your skills while you are doing it. I dont get the AM/Enduro bike thing either as most of these flow trails can actually be ridden on carbon hardtails. I want to be surprised when riding a new trail, I want to have my bike throw around to get through that rock garden, over the roots, down that drop off and yes I want to be catched off guard as thats what mountain biking is about.
 

bikesarefun

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I've always been of the opinion that the best trails can be built using nothing more than a fire-rake and a whippersnipper.

I question the impact IMBA standards have had on MTBing. Sure, the 'bench, cut and flow' philosophy of trail building has legitimised the sport in the eyes of the relevant authorities. But at the same time, we've also shoehorned ourselves into a position where we agree the only sustainable type of trail is a 1 metre wide elongated pump track.

I understand there's a delicate relationship between sustainability, the environment and the amount of traffic a trail sees. I think well groomed flow trails have a place in areas that see high traffic, as this gets more people riding and the trails are built to cope with different skill levels of riders, so maintenance is less of an issue.

I think johnny's point about the growth of the AM/Enduro market is a good one. These bikes are designed for fun, not necessarily for racing, and that's what rising's always been about for me. But I worry that we're losing the creative licence over trail building, and that freedom to create or ride other people's creations has always been a big part of why I ride.
Currently working on material for a new Australian Standard to sort out those issues....
 

tubby74

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Although I feel you on the creativity. The footage of the flow trail I've seen from Thredbo is more boring than a drill to the forehead. it's just back and forth the face of the slope and that's it. No features, no variety no journey - just going through the motions. A good fast, flowy trail that mixes things up and has a bunch of sneaky lines all over it is stupid fun to my old legs and only semi-capable ride.
I think that trail had to be aimed at that level to make it open to a large enough group of riders. The DH track is beyond the average person staying there who decides to have a go. The AM track aimed for the end of the year should sort it, I read somewhere 12km long, twice the flow trail so hopefully decent variety and obstacles. and lets face it, some of the objections to anything in the national park mean you need something like well-regarded standards to fall back on
 

bikesarefun

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Dont get me wrong but isnt that part of the problem, trails dont NEED standards?!
The problem is that councils, landowners, and insurers like standards. So, the task is to write standards which make sense for riders.

The standards on which I'm working are basically for dirt jumps and "jumpy" bike park trails. I reckon it would be trickier for DH style trails.
 

teK--

Eats Squid
Bring back loam rather than this pea gravel and cobblestones.

Some of these trails are starting to look like the short 4WD test drive courses they have at car shows.

For those in Vic, check out Warburton and Red Hill DH trails they are the awesome type of natural hand cut terrain.
 

Honzo15

Likes Dirt
The problem is that councils, landowners, and insurers like standards. So, the task is to write standards which make sense for riders.

The standards on which I'm working are basically for dirt jumps and "jumpy" bike park trails. I reckon it would be trickier for DH style trails.
Ok makes sense.
 

Ridenparadise

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Well here's a can of worms that is very close to home. There are all sorts of issues in this thread and even some solutions. Sorry, this will be long to offer perspective.

Firstly not all benched trail is made by machine. We have made a lot of it or modified parts of some trails by benching into the hill, by hand. One of those was an illegal trail line built to replace a falline eroded disaster being ruined by illegal horse riding. That trail was always shit, but would fit the description of a minimalist trail with little modification to the natural terrain, something often quoted in support of old trails. In reality the meaning is all too often a deeply eroded, rocky, cupped, falline line without any natural rhythm.

On the Gold Coast the land manager (Qld Parks and Wildlife, not City of Gold Coast as many believe) does not like illegal trail. Nor does it like erosion. So when you have an existing network of eroded and illegal trail and a land manager that has previously ploughed trails back into the bush, you have to feel somewhat lucky when that land manager gives you the chance to remedy something they identify as their problem. More than erosion and illegal, they really dislike liability that (may) come from it. So, some years ago we started to work with QPWS with the goal of bringing all trails up to an acceptable standard (IMBA or QPWS alternative). The deal is we work through the park regions and move on when things are sustainable in a given region.

The biggest issues were in the region closest to the Nerang velodrome trailhead. In fact they were on the only legal MTB trails in the park - Three Hills Singletrack and Casuarina Grove, blue (intermediate) and Green (beginner) trails consecutively. Over the years we have worked with basically no help (sorry to those few who do help at times) to fulfil the requirements of our land manager by renovating and re-routing these trails. Three Hills is done now and Casuarina is sneaking towards being a decent beginner trail.

National parks have developed increasing ties with MTB, but they do like to have control over their parks. That includes a genuine fear for the nature of our sport (a fear not reduced when they see us ride) and an obligation to allow access for all (riders), especially families and beginners. Green trail by IMBA standards is 60-100cm in width with no exposure and no obstacle >20cm that does not have an alternate ride-around. Blue has tread generally 30-60cm and can have drops up to 60cm with ride-arounds. While that may sound like wide trail, that's the deal. Given the sideslope on parts of Three Hills is into the black (advanced) IMBA rating, there have to be compromises that cater to the land manager, the climate, local drainage and soil issues and a desire to finalise most tweaks within 6-12 months of opening the trail. We just don't have the manpower (budget is a different issue for volunteers) to keep coming back for ever.

So what do you get within these constraints? Well, we can offer technical trail features one trail grade higher so long as there are alternate lines. We can utilise the terrain as best we can allowing for the use of hand tools, but there is a limit to what can be done with respect to vegetation and time. A machine can create more imaginative lines fast, but that's not the sort of imagination this thread is about. What we cannot offer is trail so narrow you can't turn the pedals for fear of hitting the upslope and going over the edge, off the trail. We cannot stand with rangers at a section of deeply eroded, falline trail and call it "technical trail". We also cannot build more trail faster, because building new trail means closing old trail lines and doing that properly is slow and hard work.

What happens is we build, or repair, or modify trail and get shit from riders who never lift a fucking finger to help, ever. We get lip because we are doing what we are asked to and they think we are making sanitised trail. You cannot use a garden trowel to build trail on public land and to be honest, anyone that says they should or can is full of shit. A personal thank you goes to all the supporters and creators of illegal new trail in the park over the last 12 months - more time we get to waste when QPWS makes us close it up instead of making new trail! Building imaginative trail whether benched and green or narrow, rocky, nasty and black is hard work and takes experience. Taking responsibility for what you build is not familiar to a lot of people who build minimalist trail. Certainly in our national park the attitude is to fuck off and build another line of dog shit when the old one isn't good anymore. After spending 500+ hours (double that for my digging mate) a year for at least 7 years patching up such trail all over the park, it bugs me that people site those trails as evidence of how you don't have to build trail the new way because it lasts better if you build without building. Bullshit - we keep fixing it for you!

While I'd like to stick a pry bar up the arse of jerks who describe our work as too smooth and straight and wide as they hover over while you kneel in mud armouring a sodden creek crossing, it wouldn't make a difference. They will not see that it is trail requested within very limited constraints by the land manager. They will not see that it gets good riders out to more technical and old school trails (none of which are under threat unless built since 2012). They will not see that beginners are really the riders without trails in Nerang National Park. They will not see that 20 years ago, three riders per week used trails now used by hundreds a day. They will not see that when that happens immediately after massive rain events the effect on trails is very different to days gone by. They will not see, even if looking at it, that the trails are not smooth except in areas where the soil has no stone. They will not understand that trail starts smooth and then gets rough. They will not see that the riding line is narrowing over time and will continue to do so; or that you won't hit something by going off line when the grass grows back because the trail edge is cleared. They will whine about lack of challenge but not use the advanced lines, up or down. And they will not help get things done faster so we can get more imaginative with new trail lines, some that may actually be exactly what "we all like", because they prefer to ride the trails they whinge about and never work on them.

Then there's gravel. We had to add gravel into the surface of new trails during January and February in places where subsoil water bloats the trail from below. 1200mm of rain over 8 weeks on brand new trail (some hand and some machine made - we had our first ever professional building in late December) over the Summer holidays is too much for any new trail. Take a peak at some of the illegal trail and the results are pretty obvious. Lack of width and no attention to drainage is not the way to build trail and it is not resistant to rider and climate effects despite some vocal claims. When I hear of Buller trails being loose and gravelly and off camber (duh, everyone says they want that until they ride it), I remember reading that World Trail worked three times on the trails and then rested them for 3 months before opening. The new Nerang trails were ridden the day after completion, the day of opening and were poached continuously during construction. They had no hope of being perfect and didn't we cop a slagging from people out mashing them up in conditions that should have kept them home. So we added gravel selectively - barrowing it long distances by hand and tamping it in by hand. I don't like it and we will rake some away as it gets exposed, but if we hadn't done it the trails would have been hard to bring back after the rider and weather deluge of Summer.

Is there a solution? Yes and an obvious one. If you have a volunteer group in your area, get in touch. Don't just say what you want and why that removed rock was your favourite in the whole trail system; turn up to learn and learn to work. Here that means getting in touch with Gold Coast MTB Club - they have a trailcare afternoon tomorrow BTW. There are lots of ways to build and repair trail. It takes hard work and numbers make a difference - experienced numbers. If your interest is to scruff out some piece of shit track, don't do it in an area with legal trail building and a developing relationship with the land manager. If it means that much to you - buy your own land and assess your impact over time. Don't get me wrong - I see National Parks as our land and I am a strong advocate for MTB access. However, those who support scratching out illegal trail are doing harm and at least slowing progress for our sport. If you have time to complain and certainly if you have time to make illegal trail, then you have time to help. Until you are helping, the chances are you will not know why trailwork proceeds as it does. In our experience you can push the envelope gently and give riders good trails with challenge, but land managers have a limit and I can tell you that limit does not extend to having untended, eroded, trail that only 2% of riders are capable of riding and even less do.

Flow Trail is a cliche that should not have been used as an alternative for trail made to drain and avoid the issues of convoluted trail turning on itself with excessive falline. It is also not the modern alternative to more old school trail. They all have their place if made well and maintained as needed. The more minds and characters involved with volunteer trailcare, the better the chance for all to have trails they love. I agree with someone who said that love riding anything. So do I, but apparently that is not as common as the large, vocal group who only like the trail they had (and presumably rode it exactly the same way every time) until it was renovated back to the way it was when first opened. It's just that they cannot remember what the trail was like before the effects of riding, weather and time changed it and they feel they have to complain about all this modern flow shit.
 

bikesarefun

Likes Bikes and Dirt
After all those words, I thought I'd add a couple of pictures to the discussion. These show the difference between flow trail construction in North America (e.g. Whistler, Coast Gravity Park, etc) and the IMBA style. These are adapted to a landfill situation, but you get the drift...

IMBA is annoying. Having water flow across a trail limits the ability to use quality dirt in a sustainable manner.


Bike Park Style.jpg

IMBA style.jpg
 

s.dogg

Likes Dirt
After all those words, I thought I'd add a couple of pictures to the discussion. These show the difference between flow trail construction in North America (e.g. Whistler, Coast Gravity Park, etc) and the IMBA style. These are adapted to a landfill situation, but you get the drift...

IMBA is annoying. Having water flow across a trail limits the ability to use quality dirt in a sustainable manner.


View attachment 309705

View attachment 309706
It all depended on the situation. trails in whis are built with both of your above styles.
The drains shown in the few top drawings are something that require regular maintenance.
 
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marc.r

Likes Dirt
Sydney people who complain about wylde, mount annan, OMV etc. Yes they aren't real mountain bike trails but then again we live in a 4.5 million person suburban sprawl. We are lucky to have somewhere we can turn our legs over that's not a road!

If you wanna be a real mountain biker move to somewhere that has hills and forrest and find/build some real shit of your own!
 

danncam

Likes Dirt
This -
They will not understand that trail starts smooth and then gets rough. They will not see that the riding line is narrowing over time and will continue to do so \
I love the trails up at Buller, and riding some again for the first time since I rode the bike buller festival four years ago, its amazing how rough some of the trails have become, but still great fun as they are well built, fast, swoopy and challenging to ride at pace
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
a personal interpretation of natural terrain. Its a form of creative expression.
Wow, you and I see MTBing really, really differently.

Lucky diversity is a good thing!

I think that trail had to be aimed at that level to make it open to a large enough group of riders. The DH track is beyond the average person staying there who decides to have a go. The AM track aimed for the end of the year should sort it, I read somewhere 12km long, twice the flow trail so hopefully decent variety and obstacles. and lets face it, some of the objections to anything in the national park mean you need something like well-regarded standards to fall back on
Yeah, I understand that too and I do get a little ticked off when people say "That's what riding is all about" as if their reality is the right one. Everyone likes different trails for different reasons and saying what trails should and shouldn't be is selfish and ignorant (although Elbo's point stands that trails in general shouldn't be standardised to one style). Some people may adore that trail at thredbo and good luck to them. I certainly understand the constraints that come from building in a park like that as well.

I look forward to the new trail, when I raced DH Thredbo was my equal fav trail in NSW.

Bring back loam rather than this pea gravel and cobblestones.
Oh dear yes. All I have in CBR is loose over hard pack - wash out city.

I'd kill for some nice, damp, loamy soil to cut right in to!!
 

Ridenparadise

Likes Bikes and Dirt
More words: What bikesarfun is showing is that there is no one way to build sustainable trail even if your purpose is to provide "flow" of some sort. IMBA provide building guidelines and therefore cannot be used for every metre of every trail. As a gross example, if you build a trail with 10% average grade in Nerang per IMBA guidelines, you will have incredibly steep and nasty trail, unrideable by almost everyone as many ascents/descents will be 25% or more. Trails averaging over 5% are rare because of the up and down terrain.

Using the trail engineering diagrams posted (thanks baf) installing drains in the dips is a great idea unless the slope leading to the dip is 40m of 20% falline trail. Unless water is removed from the falline trail, no drain will cope and the trail will erode on the grade and fill with sediment in the hollow. On the other hand, if the diagram is indicating short trail sections (and obviously it is), drains will be fantastic UNLESS your land manager says there is a nothing taken in, nothing taken out policy - like guess where!

Strangely, when I looked at those diagrams I thought of the trail built with machine in Nerang by Trailworx in December, although it is a lot rougher now after rain and riding exposed rock. It has that sort of undulating feel (no installed drains) and you are going up and down like a pogo stick at times. Between sections Trailworx did is a section we did last year. Being built by hand on very stony terrain, a steep sideslope and pushing the limit of average grade, we were not able to build as aggressively. We mostly chose different lines that avoided building up trail using excavated dirt, so it is more flowing down trail than riding the pogo. That section has been labelled "the M1, too straight, too smooth, too fast, too dangerous etc" by the riders who loved the old Three Hills line and "too much fun" by just as many others.

Most people don't know that the original Three Hills Singletrack was signposted as downhill only - the sign is still there at the top. We were able to give a legal 2 way trail that satisfied the LM. It has variety due to different builders, plus a retained section of the original trail (now people want that removed because it is too rough - go figure). Whatever, it is probably what most people would call a flow trail and it does have some berms, but it is not the enemy.

When you can convince the LM you can do what they ask, you can then ask for what you can do. Make sense? While I believe you can build sustainable IMBA-like trail with challenges including increased speed, I know you can build other trail as well. Narrow and tech has a place.

I haven't ridden Stromlo, NZ or Whistler, but a lot of places from Townsville to Hobart. There was some flow and some tech and some this and some that and in many places, no trail at all, just point and shoot. It's all good. Bombing down the Skillion on grass is as big a kick as riding the Thredbo DH trail one Oceania Champs practice day on a basic XC/AM bike in XC gear (I thought there were a lot of bikes around, but I was just passing through and rode up the ski slopes just to ride down the trail without using the lift. Made it to Kareela and kept thinking, "Shit there's heaps of good riders on this track - scratch head and balls!") Made it to the bottom with one stop to let a loud train pass in the woods after crossing Snowgums Chair and one after the woods because they were looking at me oddly.

Anyway, the gist is that you make what you can of what you ride, but you have to be realistic. One trail cannot be everything for everyone. Every trail will change and degrade. Degraded trail is not a synonym for real trail. I think if people spent a bit of time riding away from their local trail centre, including streets and parks etc, they would not need to be so critical about what we have access to. Either that, or do more trailcare and have more personal input.
 

Attachments

No Skid Marks

Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
Lots of legal trail builders are doing great work within their restrictions. Well deserved pat on the back etc. Don't let that confuse that what riders want as being wrong though. Or what MTBing actually is.
Without nonsense restrictions illegal trails will always have a possible fun advantage. Especially if built right. Just cause you're building something not sanctioned, doesn't mean you should not build it right so it will have a chance of surviving both from Natures forces and the land owners. IMBA blah blah. It's not that hard to make sure water cannot generate speed down a track, even the steepest of tracks. Just never let it run straight down a track for more than a meter or whatever depending on gradient. And provide obstacles and trail design to make riders brake where you want them to(before steep bits, in corners etc), rock gardens corners, mounds, logs, etc can do this. Non official tracks usually have a massive advantage over govy funded tracks in they will see far less usage, especially if the fight club rules are adhered too. So they don't have as much rider wear.
Yes as mentioned, lots of legal tracks will get way cooler over time as nature gets a grip back on them and rider lines form(damn Strava here).
Then there's modifying legal trails. Best not to do this until the powers that be have taken their merit for it and moved on. and this will obviously happen and is unavoidable, so be patient.
Seeing some great legal trails built here in Canberra. Stromlo has a range of track styles if you look beyond the main "flow" lines. Majura seems like a great approach, govy funded main trails and a map of were trails are to be built that Joe Blow can build(yet to see how this transpires, but fingers crossed). and yes it is really upsetting to see old tracks there have features removed and retarded shit like logs with dirt on each side built.
I don't think people should stop track building(be sensible but), it's a good way to get what we want. and it is the main way we've got what we have. Centennial park is that way. Go ride it if you wanna be safe and ride without thinking.
People are gonna winge no matter what. No trail builder is perfect or sees things the same. We should just all be stoked on the fact we do have shit tons of tracks now. Most are pretty fricken rad.
That's my 2 Bob.
 
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slippy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The thing that seems to be forgotten in most modern trail design is the infinite satisfaction that comes from conquering the impossibly difficult bit of trail that was defeating you until you manned up. These days it's all about accessibility for all. Mountain biking used to be a sport for people who were tough as nails and not scared of a challenge. Now everyone wants to have a go without having to put in the hard yards. So trails are made that lame asses can ride and surprise surprise the trails are more heavily used - that doesn't make it a success, that just means you dumbed down a tough sport for the masses.
 

Nautonier

Eats Squid
Bring back loam rather than this pea gravel and cobblestones.

Some of these trails are starting to look like the short 4WD test drive courses they have at car shows.

For those in Vic, check out Warburton and Red Hill DH trails they are the awesome type of natural hand cut terrain.
Unfortunately many of the 'flow' trails built in Vic are of the pea gravel and cobblestone nature. To name a few examples: Copperhead, Epic, Buxton, Kinglake and the You Yangs. Totally agree that Warby and Red Hill are an excellent example of how it can be done. If you want loam there's also Narby, which is excellent, as long as it's not wet. The best example of a loamfest I can think of is the new section that Ben Watkins cut into the Narby track for the enduro race. Possibly not the most sustainable track around, but proves that loam/natural is not only possible, but easier/quicker to cut in. Now that it's a bit chopped out (mainly due to racing it in the wet), it's still fun to ride and will evolve in an interesting way.

In terms of sustainability of 'natural' trails generally, their evolution is not a bad thing, except when raced in the wet, which should not be allowed under any circumstances.
 
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indica

Serial flasher
We have McFlow here, built by Marty McFlow himself.
He came and built what he was contracted to build.
You know what? Fair bit of use, neglect and rain and really made a big difference to some trails.
Rode one the other day that is all rocky and fucked up - I love it.

Are the people that complain doing anything to change anything or just riding???
 
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