McFlow trails and the decreasing diversity of trails

[FINX74]

That's exactly my issue with it! THIS is a 'posterchild' for the future of mountainbiking.

That entire area was a sand hill, but was the only way up allowed (constriction in project), that's why its built like that. There are reasons unknown to most, why trail is built a certain way.

 

[johnny]

Sad thing is it has been us as a group who sold that philosophy to land managers.

I enjoy a nice flowy bermed up groomed trail but I still get most excited about stumbling across a random old trail out on and adventure ride. It doesn't have to lead anywhere. It can be stick strewn and rocky I still try and ride it as fast as as I can and check the reflexes (Which are getting slower)

As they say variety is the spice of life and we have to stop convincing land managers that big dollar machine built trails are the only suitable options

This man built one of the best trails this country has ever seen.


RIP Old Mine Trail.

 

[Ridenparadise]

Flow trails here and there I have no problem with but the majority of trails these days seem to be (as you put it) gravel freeways. That's what I have an issue with.

Exhibit A: View attachment 309782

Now I understand this is on a Green (Easy) trail but there is nothing natural about it at all. The cost that has gone into the landscaping could have been used in making a more interesting trail. Now Ive seen pictures of this section all over Flow MTB and Derby's website and they are very proud of it. Should mountain biking be proud of a trail that looks like its a path through a garden center. It might be a green trail but mountain biking is about skill (and improving on it) not riding a smooth bike path. Yes, it's only one section of a much longer trail but is this what we are telling newcomers to MTB that the sport is about? This is only one example but if you look at photos of most MTB parks these days, this is whats getting built.

It might only be a small percentage of trail now, but its gaining momentum and is a sign of things to come.

The wife saw Exhibit A and said she loved it because it was pretty. I asked her if she would ride it and she said no. She only rides "on the flat". That's one opinion to hate. While it looks like a golf course design (where have I heard that), even World Trail is not going to purchase and transport all those rocks in. You use what you find, what you dig up and what you have stored, whether building with machine or by hand.

Unless you can come up with a better way of building a green trail up that slope that will not be overgrown after the next rain, then think before you challenge. We build trail over a metre wide and 2 months later it has a riding line about 30m wide, unless it was never intended to (hopefully).

Smooth becomes rough, wide becomes narrow and if your intent is to build a trail that most cyclists can use into the future, then you must start with something that will narrow and become more challenging over time.

I think Exhibit A is pretty too, but I would like to ride it.

 

[thecat]

This man built one of the best trails this country has ever seen.


RIP Old Mine Trail.

I'm far from the best builder but there are many great local trail builders who are getting pushed more to the outskirts and as much as I've championed an open aproved approach over the years I can see a return of (or at least a continuation) of trails being built on the quiet where builders get the trail they want now rather than a watered down version for the masses a year or two down the line

 

[Boom King]

I'm far from the best builder but there are many great local trail builders who are getting pushed more to the outskirts and as much as I've championed an open aproved approach over the years I can see a return of (or at least a continuation) of trails being built on the quiet where builders get the trail they want now rather than a watered down version for the masses a year or two down the line

So what is the solution?

Times change as do attitudes and circumstance. We are a much more litigious society than 10 or 20 years ago. Land owners have many more things to consider. This is why trail builders are being constrained.

It would seem that Ridenparadise's idea of building approved trail but pushing the boundaries of approval, therefore slowly educating the landowner of what can be safely achieved, is a reasonable position.

Build legal and sustainable, build trust and be rewarded with more leway on the next project.

 

[Elbo]

Sad thing is it has been us as a group who sold that philosophy to land managers.

I enjoy a nice flowy bermed up groomed trail but I still get most excited about stumbling across a random old trail out on and adventure ride. It doesn't have to lead anywhere. It can be stick strewn and rocky I still try and ride it as fast as as I can and check the reflexes (Which are getting slower)

As they say variety is the spice of life and we have to stop convincing land managers that big dollar machine built trails are the only suitable options. Mountain biking is suppose to be about getting out in nature, I'm not sure the manicured, artificially landscaped trails fit that bill. Sure there is a spot for them, but that's in urban centers with high traffic flows not dumped in the middle of the Aussie bush

We also need to convince newbies that getting off and walking over an obstacle never hurt anyone whose ego wasn't too precious to begin with and that falling off is part of the learning curve. Hell there's a bit of trail I went OTBs on at least a dozen times before for a managed to clear it. I learnt to roll. and now it's one of my all time favorite sections and I look forward to it ever time I start that trail. I haven't fallen off there for many years (touch wood) but it still scares me just that little bit as I head in and I still grin like an idiot when I make it through

This is a big part of it I think. We had huge issues in Albury with people dumbing down trails a few years ago. Every week we'd find a technical rock garden or step up smashed with picks and hammers. People were literally chipping straight-line paths through rock gardens and making highways out of the most technical trails on the hill. Anyone who's ridden in Albury will know its really rocky and techy in spots, particularly the further you get away from town. But, there are a whole range of trails there to cater for all skill levels for a reason and there's nothing wrong with getting off and walking a section until you feel confident enough to give it a go.

I'm far from the best builder but there are many great local trail builders who are getting pushed more to the outskirts and as much as I've championed an open aproved approach over the years I can see a return of (or at least a continuation) of trails being built on the quiet where builders get the trail they want now rather than a watered down version for the masses a year or two down the line

Spot on Flynny. This is the main problem I see emerging in the near future. Trail fairies and the people in clubs who are passionate about helping are pushed out. I know people who have been itching to go and whipper snip grass along kilometres and kilometres of trails in their own time and at their own expense, but out of respect for the process and official way of doing things, run it by their club, who then run it by the land manager. Approval comes back 2 months later and by that time they've got so frustrated waiting around they'd already done it quietly a month ago.

 

[Elbo]

So what is the solution?

Times change as do attitudes and circumstance. We are a much more litigious society than 10 or 20 years ago. Land owners have many more things to consider. This is why trail builders are being constrained.

It would seem that Ridenparadise's idea of building approved trail but pushing the boundaries of approval, therefore slowly educating the landowner of what can be safely achieved, is a reasonable position.

Build legal and sustainable, build trust and be rewarded with more leway on the next project.

I like Ridenparadise's idea. Just like we sold one philosophy to land managers, we can work out ways of promoting various other philosophies, many of which may be better suited for particular environments and terrain. I think we need to encourage a more grassroots approach that makes use of local knowledge and brings trail building back to the level of a localised, community-based, community-owned activity, than a FIFO imported product.

 

[No Skid Marks]

Now that I'm back from a good ride, there is common sense in this thread, but not exclusively. No Skid Marks, I have to address the above post of yours. I presume you added the red comments into the summary I posted? Yes, red was just a colour though, not intended to express rage ;-) .
If you are going to debate the future of trail building, you will not get what you wants here.Yes and no, it all sinks in. This was/is just a conversation for everyone to share and learn as I see it. I've learnt a bit by more eloquent writers than both you and I. As I said, if you are not involved on the ground, you have no moral or actual influence I think you are wrong here. If you're not listening to the people whome ride the trails you build, then you're only building trails for yourself or your ideals it would appear, but again this is just word games.. Thanks for the fuck that I'll ride and not build because I have an excuse that matters to me attitude. I'll add your family issues to the 1000 other excuses we hear from dudes riding more than we do week after week, year after year. I've done at least the equivalent of a solid year of 9-5 trail building for free, I think I've earned the right to an opinion if you don't mind. Others on here can vouch for me I'm sure. and I've done my share of paid trail work. Maybe you've done more, I don't care, it's not a pissing contest is it? Thank you non the less for your work though, seriously.
Local advocacy has taken MTB in Nerang National Park from talk of being shut out and trails bulldozed less than 4 years ago to a vastly different situation now. Unless it was made illegally since 2012, all historical MTB trail in Nerang National Park is designated as MTB trail pending renovation to agreed standards based on an official trail audit. Anything less was unacceptable to us. All trail including the most raw is now legal. Again thank you, the trails are still everyones though, so everyone should be catered for and heard.
As far as trails should be made to suit you and not to encourage newbies; I find it really hard not to want to jump down your throat and rip the ignorance out the other end.settle dude, you're reading what I wrote as negatively as you can. My point is meant to read, let newbies learn by making them have to think, like we all did and learn skills by challenging stuff, having to walk some parts if they scare them or they can't ride up or down them. Back in the day, there was lots of walking sections done by many. just the idea that excluding 90% of us improves the future of MTB on public land is ludicrous. Again that's misreading what I was trying to say(possibly my fault). I'm saying make trails with features, they can be obvious, but make them hard so people have to get off and walk if needed. Or make the track smooth, but make multiple lines and obstacles like hidden lips and stuff, even if they're just rocks etc.
My comment about 29ers was made as an example of a gross generalisation, albeit with some truth most of mine and others comments in this thread are all gross generalizations too, and lots for arguments sake. As we've all pretty much said, even the wide easy flow tracks will naturally narrow, get more gnarly and get modified over time.. Things just are not as they once were. They never will be again unless you move to the country and find neighbours who invite you onto their land. People want to ride bikes in the bush. Not all are good riders, but they still deserve a go. I would much rather meet and chat with a young family, or a young woman out riding for leisure and just enjoying life, than have to get out of the way of Mr self-obsessed, I need to suffer to progress, core enduro man bombing a trail, or blindly cranking out watts up a hill that is below their difficulty dignity so they can get to that one piece of crap trail only they can boast about riding dab-free because they do it every Wednesday afternoon of their life, regardless of weather. Well it would seem by your words, you are narrow minded, and that would lead one to believe your ideal is to make tracks for families to ride along and have picnics and talk about church :noidea: I'm just being a dick. But you can see by what you too say, it can be misconstrued.
Alternate lines every 4 metres - ha ha. No-one uses technical, alternate lines every time, especially uphill. Build them (you should) and most fail to ever try them,true on climbs, hence why there should be no beginner/strava cheat option. Ride it or walk, and I hate climbing(still try and ride the harder lines though), or have a much slower easier line. let alone looking for the sneaky extras on the downs lots of people will hit the sneaky extras unless just trying to race their mates, again, only making safe but challenging lines would be more ideal in some instances. Or again, make the faster line the sneaky jump, rock garden or whatever.
The concept that unpredictable trail yields new challenges every ride is a total joke. I meant rugged tracks where your not always able to be on the same line, and that then changes the next line and so-forth.
If you are trying to tell me that a trail that offers limited chance to to do anything other than just struggle across is the recipe for imaginative riding, your putting words in my mouth then I am going to say you are full of shit just a conversation, love your work :thumb: . Struggle trail one day has the same struggle lines the next day. That's not a bad thing, but I suspect wannabes are the ones that talk up this guff. I'm an old fart like you, been riding for twenty years or so. I would love to be faster sure. I'm not talking anything up. Just saying be open minded.
I never was on a high horse well you and i both should go learn how to talk more calmly and clearly.. It's hard to be like that when you are covered in mud or sweat and dust or trying to put things to your land manager into acceptable words at midnight while hoping you may get to ride next week.
NSM, you don't get anywhere with a selfish attitude. Your toddler will get that through to you very soon! Riding a bike is always good. Until "you" get the testosterone out of your nose and drop the negative commentary, you are going to miss the importance of riding in the bush; the place, the freedom, the inevitable challenges< key words and the company of friends and strangers. MTB is not the place you take your annoying suburban life to the world and shove yourself into its face. MTB in the end is unforgiving unless you relax. That's what makes the golden run or epic day so elusive and endearing for grumpy old bastards like me. One day we all look back on our riding and remember the great days. There is a very good chance that those memories will feature easy trail, fire road, great views, happiness and friends well ahead of images of holding your cock in triumph, all alone at the end of a trail no-one else could ride. If that is not what you need, then go race to prove yourself and see where you stand with a like-minded crowd. Well that's your take on it mate. For me Mountain biking is riding complex enough stuff that I'm running on my subconscious and therefore in a meditative state not thinking about that "annoying suburban life" as my brain is using everything to ride, or just crunching the climb having a chat and a break from that with a few challenges thrown in. Views are great, and I love the bush, but that's not much of the reason I'm there, I'm there to be part of the bush, like a hunted or hunting animal running through it. /QUOTE] Please if my views are expressed to rawly as I'm as bad as it as you, please take from others views on here saying much the same thing but put less inoffensively perhaps.
Paid or not, you may be a great trail advocate and have the powers that be respecting what you say(well done here), but you're still not the track police and if you don't make the tracks people want, then others will, so don't winge if that fucks up the whole shebang. Read your part on selfishness.
If a track is sterile, people will get bored a lot faster.
Again, thank you for all you've done. I tip my hat to you Not taking the piss here.
​I would like to add, I think on a whole we probably agree on most things and this really is just a debate on the way we've both worded stuff. I agree, Make the land owners happy with sanitized trails, then slip in the techy fun stuff. I'm just saying, don't forget or ignore that last part. Centenial park is for picnics.
Sorry for the derail everyone.

 

[slippy]

Not a derail. My thoughts exactly.

 

[pharmaboy]

mauve is a nicer colour than red - far more calming......

Maybe we should build flow trails in mauve and on rocky trails paint them red to represent the blood and the rage that they gave.....

 

[pharmaboy]

OK, mountain biking Australia just shared world trails video on Facebook of the derby trails.

I have a soul, and that motivates me to want to go to tasmania and ride it

 

[Ky1e]

OK, mountain biking Australia just shared world trails video on Facebook of the derby trails.

I have a soul, and that motivates me to want to go to tasmania and ride it

Yep! I'm cool with what I saw in that video

 

[electric wizard]

I live on the northern fringe of Syd where its pretty much a sandstone shit storm. Having Hornsby Bike park (OMV) is awesome when you want a little breather from rough rocky trails.

I wouldn't want to exclusively ride trails like OMV but it sure is nice to boot around that track without a care in the world.

It also makes me appreciate the rough natural trails and the lower number of people using them.

 

[Plankosaurus]

I don't get what all the fuss is aboot, there's plenty of everything around for everyone isn't there?

* if you like easier trails, ride the easier ones
* if you like tougher trails, ride the tougher ones
* If you like riding anything, ride them all
* if there's no trails you like, sell your bike or get involved in building trails that suit you
* if you like whining and arguing, leave the bike in the shed and jump on rotorburn (joke, please don't ban me Johnny :scared

Trails are here for everyone I thought, and that means beginner to intermediate to superstars. Paid trail builders are more than likely being paid to make trails that suit the larger number of riders out there, which is going to be beginner to intermediate at best. It may not be challenging you but it's likely fun for a bunch of people and if you can learn to appreciate a trail simply for the fact that it exist you might get a little something out of it too.

Personally, I like riding. I like riding stuff that challenges me. I like riding new stuff. I like riding stuff that I know like the back of my hand. I like riding fire trails between tracks. I like riding bike paths with the family. I even like riding road where knows in cars are trying to kill me. Bikes are fucking cool

 

[thecat]

So what is the solution?

Times change as do attitudes and circumstance. We are a much more litigious society than 10 or 20 years ago.

Are we really though? Or is that just a perception? I can't think of a single instance where a land manager has been sued in the 40 years mountain bikes have been around in Aus.

An example from up here. Gun Club DH trail was built with council approval on council managed land in the 90s (Yep an approved DH track on council land in the 90s, it's not a new thing yet we keep trying to reinvent the wheel).
In that time it's had a few big races including state, national and Oceanias and it's there for anyone to ride. In that time I know of zero incidents reported to council (And I work closely with council on all things bike in town)
Thats 0.

I know of at least a dozen times council has been sued from someone falling over and hurting them self on the footpath. Are all footpaths being closed and reevaluated? Nope.
Are council scared of building new footpaths in case these extreme footpath nutters hurt themself and try and sue. Nope.

Perception is a big misconception

BTW Thats a DH trail built before IMBA standards were ever heard of and I'd be confident to say its seen less than 40 maintenance days on it in 20 years. And the majority of those were to change/add things before races.

Land owners have many more things to consider. This is why trail builders are being constrained.

Land managers were reluctant, true but then we sold them this idea of what trails are suitable and I think we went super conservative rather then realistic. Maybe that was a foot in the door, maybe it is time to reevaluate and, as you and Ridenparadise say, start pushing the boundaries. But surely by now we have a wealth of data that challenges these myths of mtbers axing themselves and suing the land managers?

Build legal and sustainable, build trust and be rewarded with more leway on the next project.

For what its worth I think the derby trail looks pretty cool.
The photo that has been pumped around of the up hill switch backs looks like its aimed at convincing non riders on how pretty a mtb trail can look but the rest of the trail looks ace
and unfortunately you need that level of rock work and landscaping on sections like that to stop people straightlining the trails

 

[steve jobs' pancreas]

I don't get what all the fuss is aboot, there's plenty of everything around for everyone isn't there?

* if you like easier trails, ride the easier ones
* if you like tougher trails, ride the tougher ones
* If you like riding anything, ride them all
* if there's no trails you like, sell your bike or get involved in building trails that suit you
* if you like whining and arguing, leave the bike in the shed and jump on rotorburn (joke, please don't ban me Johnny :scared

Trails are here for everyone I thought, and that means beginner to intermediate to superstars. Paid trail builders are more than likely being paid to make trails that suit the larger number of riders out there, which is going to be beginner to intermediate at best. It may not be challenging you but it's likely fun for a bunch of people and if you can learn to appreciate a trail simply for the fact that it exist you might get a little something out of it too.

Personally, I like riding. I like riding stuff that challenges me. I like riding new stuff. I like riding stuff that I know like the back of my hand. I like riding fire trails between tracks. I like riding bike paths with the family. I even like riding road where knows in cars are trying to kill me. Bikes are fucking cool

Plankosaurus is right


He should be fucking banned !!!!!

 

[Link]

Two months ago, had this thread come up, I would have launched into a flaming whinge about the state of Australian council approved trail and the flow-ification of our sport. But now that I've ridden the new Ghania and Serrata trails (and Daisy Dukes) around Bantry Bay in Sydney, I feel like the sport is back on track. These trails sum up everything that new council built trails should be.

They aren't designed for any one bike, they are designed to get riders from point A to point B using the natural features of the mountain. Maybe that means you use an XC hardtail, maybe you use a top specced Enduro bike, heck some of the sections would be better an a full DH rig. Regardless, what matters is the trail and nature and keeping things raw. That's why I ride mountainbikes. I want to be challenged by the natural environment - not by some guy with a backhoe.

I can't believe people complain about these tracks. They are the standard that all trails should follow.

And remember kids, trails don't flow, riders do.

 

[Stredda]

OK, mountain biking Australia just shared world trails video on Facebook of the derby trails.

I have a soul, and that motivates me to want to go to tasmania and ride it

I just recently rode the first sections of the Derby trails opened and and it left me with the biggest grin at the end of the 20km loop. Just loved the speed and flow of the trails and how they have incorporated the huge granite boulders and slabs into the trail. There is still pleanty of old school trails (hand cut trails, old walking tracks and firetrails)as well as more techi machine built tracks like the Juggernaught at Hollybank so at least in Tassie there is pleanty of diversity. And it's these flow trails that bring more people into mountainbiking.

 

[Knuckles]

I don't get what all the fuss is aboot, there's plenty of everything around for everyone isn't there?

* if you like easier trails, ride the easier ones
* if you like tougher trails, ride the tougher ones
* If you like riding anything, ride them all
* if there's no trails you like, sell your bike or get involved in building trails that suit you
* if you like whining and arguing, leave the bike in the shed and jump on rotorburn (joke, please don't ban me Johnny :scared

Trails are here for everyone I thought, and that means beginner to intermediate to superstars. Paid trail builders are more than likely being paid to make trails that suit the larger number of riders out there, which is going to be beginner to intermediate at best. It may not be challenging you but it's likely fun for a bunch of people and if you can learn to appreciate a trail simply for the fact that it exist you might get a little something out of it too.

Personally, I like riding. I like riding stuff that challenges me. I like riding new stuff. I like riding stuff that I know like the back of my hand. I like riding fire trails between tracks. I like riding bike paths with the family. I even like riding road where knows in cars are trying to kill me. Bikes are fucking cool

I'm with stoopid

Having a groomed flow trail is better than no trail at all. Diversity is the key, some days I just I just want a nice crusiey roll, others, I want to hammer my kidneys into pate.

Just a couple of weekends ago I went for a 4x4 grind, and apart from the naked concussion, I had a ball.

Shirley if the trails are managed right, they can be "maintained" into something more challenging while retaining something for the noob :noidea:

 

[stickso]

... For me Mountain biking is riding complex enough stuff that I'm running on my subconscious and therefore in a meditative state not thinking about that...

Nailed it. I get to ride 1-2 hours/week tops and its the only way I can get my brain to turn off. So long as I have to focus on that bit of dirt/rock in front of me to keep rubber side down then I'm a happy camper. Not really fussed the style of the track so long as it's a challenge.