More fuel for the 'Core Training' Fire - Nino Schurter training video

rsquared

Likes Dirt
After completing my MTB coaching course over the weekend through MTBA where there was a Strength & Conditioning module which talked specifically about core training, it's importance for effective power production and training it using unstable surfaces, they then went on to show a video Nino Schurter just posted a few days ago showing him using stability and core training in the gym. This course was excellent by the way and was facilitated by a UCI level coach and world cup level rider.

Surely Nino has access to the best sports science information and training doesn't he? MWI, why do you think top level athletes are still using this style of training? Do you think this comes down to athletes thinking they need it so coaches build it into their programs so mentally they believe they are prepared or are they actually seeing performance improvements through improved stability and control through the hips and shoulders?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CctaKbrQLE0
 
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gassyndrome

Likes Bikes
That sure is....ahem....'innovative'.

I'm sure it probably does have some activation benefits pre-ride, but you could accomplish exactly the same thing with some glute bridges, goblet squats, hip mobility stuff, etc.
I have one of the TRX things, which is a great tool, but what he is doing just looks a bit silly and like poor wire work from a high school Peter Pan production.
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
After completing my MTB coaching course over the weekend through MTBA where there was a Strength & Conditioning module which talked specifically about core training, it's importance for effective power production and training it using unstable surfaces,]
Did they also present some peer reviewed evidence to back up their claims?
Did they show what the valid and reliable test for improvements in core was? (there isn't one)
Did they ignore the last 15 years of research showing that labile surface training results in increased co-contraction and is a terrible training adaptation?
If the course was presented by Paul Hodges, I'll accept it was probably pretty spot on.

That video was good, they got some nice equipment there, must be a national training centre. doing some serioud cross country skiing, no wonder he's a machine.
looked to me like his strength training and propriceptive training was separate, squatting was on the on the floor and the balance stuff was separate.... juggling as well.
Pushup work wasn't strength work, it's muscular endurance trying to fatigue the shoulders to promote coordination in a fatigued state, such as on the last lap of a rough course.

Core is a bit like stretching, people were sure it was the bees knees for more than 35 years, the evidence is completely different. Give this a fad cycle some time and it will be zumba, boxacise, dance aerobics, vibration plates and other crap that never helped.

The only warm up you need for riding is riding at a light pace for a while.

On a side note, I've been made course chair for an exercise phys course for the next few years... at least some students are going to be hit this the evidence stick, wonder if they'll believe it all.
 
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Core is a bit like stretching, people were sure it was the bees knees for more than 35 years, the evidence is completely different.
When you say stretching are you referring to pre-exercise stretching or just stretching in general ?

I ask because I suffer from poor flexibility which I believe is starting to cause dramas in joints etc and was starting to do some stretching (early days so I don't know if its working or not).

I'd be interested in being pointed towards some reading on the topic.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I was actually part of an experiment on pre-stretching in 1994 by the army. We were a minimal pre-stretch platoon paired with a full pre-stretch platoon. They decided (after wider findings other than just our case were considered) that pre-stretching caused greater injury but post-stretching was still required. That may have changed in the last 10 years though.
 

Mywifesirrational

I however am very normal. Trust me.
When you say stretching are you referring to pre-exercise stretching or just stretching in general ?

I ask because I suffer from poor flexibility which I believe is starting to cause dramas in joints etc and was starting to do some stretching (early days so I don't know if its working or not).

I'd be interested in being pointed towards some reading on the topic.
Pre and post exercise stretching, although my disclaimer to this is if you do have a diagnosed deficits in flexibility, stretching is still the recommendation, no surprise there. But there is no need to do it before or after activity, can be done while watching telly or whenever is convenient.

there are a few post regarding stretching on here, search engine hates me.


I was actually part of an experiment on pre-stretching in 1994 by the army. We were a minimal pre-stretch platoon paired with a full pre-stretch platoon. They decided (after wider findings other than just our case were considered) that pre-stretching caused greater injury but post-stretching was still required. That may have changed in the last 10 years though.
that was the Pope 2000(?) study. At least published in, 2600 total participants - the study might have been run for how many years to get that many recruits?

I'm impressed, you were involved in one of the best stretching studies to date, those findings are still valid, the same results have been found in elite and sub elite field sports. Got the PDF on the desk top, no significant differences (statistically) between the stretch or non stretch group from memory - there were differences, but it was due to random chance.

The other main finding was older soldiers had more soft tissue injuries, this kind of makes sense even from an anecdotal point of view, so many older AFL guys also injuried at what appears much higher rates.
 
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rsquared

Likes Dirt
Did they also present some peer reviewed evidence to back up their claims?
Did they show what the valid and reliable test for improvements in core was? (there isn't one)
Did they ignore the last 15 years of research showing that labile surface training results in increased co-contraction and is a terrible training adaptation?
If the course was presented by Paul Hodges, I'll accept it was probably pretty spot on.

That video was good, they got some nice equipment there, must be a national training centre. doing some serioud cross country skiing, no wonder he's a machine.
looked to me like his strength training and propriceptive training was separate, squatting was on the on the floor and the balance stuff was separate.... juggling as well.
Pushup work wasn't strength work, it's muscular endurance trying to fatigue the shoulders to promote coordination in a fatigued state, such as on the last lap of a rough course.
haha. MWI, surprisingly studies weren't provided. I was sitting up the back just shaking my head, and thinking how disappointed MWI would be. They still even told everyone about calculating max HR using 220 - age. It wasn't Paul Hodges and it wasn't the presenters faults, the material is governed and supplied by MTBA to suit national training schemes.

Yep, that training centre looks amazing and Nino is a beast. Would like to see those V02 numbers or power numbers. Wouldn't muscular endurance training be better performed on a bike, under a fatigued state though? Any proof that juggling balls under fatigue improves bike handling skills?
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
haha. MWI, surprisingly studies weren't provided. I was sitting up the back just shaking my head, and thinking how disappointed MWI would be. They still even told everyone about calculating max HR using 220 - age. It wasn't Paul Hodges and it wasn't the presenters faults, the material is governed and supplied by MTBA to suit national training schemes.

Yep, that training centre looks amazing and Nino is a beast. Would like to see those V02 numbers or power numbers. Wouldn't muscular endurance training be better performed on a bike, under a fatigued state though? Any proof that juggling balls under fatigue improves bike handling skills?
Should make us all question anything put forward in the personal training, nutrition sphere where psuedo science abounds. A few years ago I decided to only take advice from the AIS site - lots of proper scientists and a demand for evidence.

Good spot on the 220- age thing too - you can be pretty sure that whomever is putting forward such stuff, isn't interested in going searching beyond a google search engine result.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Sorry, couldn't help myself. From the AID website:


http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/hydration/fluid_-_who_needs_it

What should athletes drink?

Research shows that fluid intake is enhanced when beverages are cool (~15 °C), flavoured and contain sodium (salt). This makes sports drinks an ideal choice during exercise. Sports drinks are not gimmicks. They are legitimate products that are well researched and proven to improve fluid intake and performance. A great deal of science has gone into developing the flavour profile of sports drinks so that they encourage fluid intake during exercise. In addition, sports drinks contain carbohydrate at a concentration (4-8%) that allows refueling to take place during exercise.
Several studies demonstrate that use of sports drinks will improve fluid intake. A study conducted with AIS netball and basketball players in 1999 demonstrated better fluid balance with a sports drink compared to water. This is consistently observed across our sporting programs. Even athletes who prefer to drink water during exercise, demonstrate better fluid intake when forced to drink sports drink.
In the past, it was believed that sports drinks only benefited the performance of exercise greater than 90 minutes. However, in recent years, the intake of carbohydrate and fluid has been shown to be beneficial for high intensity exercise of approximately 60 minutes. This makes sports drinks a good option for many types of sporting activity.
Water is still a suitable option during exercise. However, water drinkers need to be aware that water does not stimulate fluid intake to the same extent as sports drinks. Drinking to a plan is therefore crucial when drinking water. Don't rely on thirst.
Cordial, soft drinks and juice generally contain greater than 10% carbohydrate and are low in sodium. This can slow down gastric emptying and makes these drinks a less suitable choice, especially for high intensity activity. Some athletes, exercising at low intensities may tolerate juice, soft drink and cordial but in most situations, sports drinks are the better option.
Which sports drink is the best?

Food standards in Australia place restrictions on the formulation of sports drinks. As a result, sports drinks sold in Australia are very similar in composition (see the table below). Choose sports drinks that have 4-8% carbohydrate, 10-20 mmol/L sodium, are affordable, come in a convenient package and taste good.


[table doesn't copy/paste]

Is it possible to drink too much?

Consuming fluid in excess of requirements may cause some gastrointestinal discomfort. In extreme cases, a condition called hyponatraemia can occur. Hyponatraemia (low blood sodium levels) causes symptoms similar to dehydration and is potentially life threatening. It is not common but can occur in prolonged endurance events (> 2 hours) when large volumes of low sodium drinks (such as water) are consumed and sweat losses are small. Those most at risk are small females who have long race times. This group of athletes tends to have small sweat losses and plenty of time to consume large amounts of fluid during the event. Consuming sodium-containing fluids such as sports drink and matching fluid intake to sweat loss lowers the risk of hyponatraemia.
Sports drinks and dental health

Sports drinks, like other carbohydrate containing fluids, including soft drinks and fruit juices, have been shown to contribute to dental erosion. To help reduce the potential impact of sports drinks on dental health, athletes should:

Minimise the contact time the sports drink has with their teeth. Do not hold or swish sports drinks in your mouth. A straw or squeezy bottle can also minimise contact time with the teeth by directing fluids towards the back of the mouth.
Where practical, consume dairy products or chew sugar free gum immediately after consumption of the sports drink.
Avoid brushing teeth for at least 30 minutes after consuming sports drink to allow tooth enamel to re-harden.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
What's the sorry for Johnny? Are you feeling like it's going to be trolling?

You may well be right - unbelievably, my daughters gymnasium has banned sport drinks - we are talking young girls doing 3 and 4 hour gym sessions and they are only supposed to use water and an apple - sooner or later I'm going to get hold of the owner and school them
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah, it was trolling, light-hearted albeit.

The Checkout ran a piece last week about sports drinks that produced research saying that sports drinks are not any better than water etc. etc. and previous research showing their benefits was crap/dodgy, etc. etc.

There's been a bunch of news about this issue for a while:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nd-making-us-fat/story-e6frg6n6-1227306289570
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ais-row-over-sports-drink/2007/08/16/1186857682293.html
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/s...sporting-events-australian-researchers-2014-9

I don't have a position on it myself but that page on the AIS website (which is basically from Gatorade) does seem a little dodgy to me.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Yeah, it was trolling, light-hearted albeit.

The Checkout ran a piece last week about sports drinks that produced research saying that sports drinks are not any better than water etc. etc. and previous research showing their benefits was crap/dodgy, etc. etc.

There's been a bunch of news about this issue for a while:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nd-making-us-fat/story-e6frg6n6-1227306289570
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ais-row-over-sports-drink/2007/08/16/1186857682293.html
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/s...sporting-events-australian-researchers-2014-9

I don't have a position on it myself but that page on the AIS website (which is basically from Gatorade) does seem a little dodgy to me.
Ah yeah - no doubt their marketing is aimed at the general population and getting overweight middle aged women to buy their product because it's "sports". There isn't any money in athletes doing endurance sports and needing hydration, so probably 1 or 2% of Gatorade sales are for what it's for! the rest is for cool factor and dumb people who actually need water from the tap.

That's the problem with the AIS, they make a recomendation on the basis of skinny athletes actually doing shit, and the companies use that info to sell more product - that's capitalism for you.
 

Pastavore

Eats Squid
Yeah, it was trolling, light-hearted albeit.

The Checkout ran a piece last week about sports drinks that produced research saying that sports drinks are not any better than water etc. etc. and previous research showing their benefits was crap/dodgy, etc. etc.

There's been a bunch of news about this issue for a while:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...nd-making-us-fat/story-e6frg6n6-1227306289570
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ais-row-over-sports-drink/2007/08/16/1186857682293.html
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/s...sporting-events-australian-researchers-2014-9

I don't have a position on it myself but that page on the AIS website (which is basically from Gatorade) does seem a little dodgy to me.
In my opinion you are right to be sceptical.

Check out this series from some very good sports scientists:
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-sweat-and-electrolytes/

That is part one, of 5 I think, links should be obvious.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
In my opinion you are right to be sceptical.

Check out this series from some very good sports scientists:
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-sweat-and-electrolytes/

That is part one, of 5 I think, links should be obvious.
I've read that, and to be honest I don't see that they argue against each other.

The AIS recomendations say sport drinks have a good carbohydrate ratio and sodium that facilitates thirst and gastric emptying. We already know in medicine that sugary water is faster to absorb than plain water.

The 2 key concepts argued against in your linked article are that low sodium levels are caused by sweating and that sodium has a role to play in cramps and must be replaced . It argues those points well, but the AIS doesn't posit either one a season to use sports drinks.

The article agrees with the AIS ( or doesn't disagree I should say) but disagrees with the marketing material of some sport drinks - fair enough I say
 
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