NSW Mountain bike use of illegal tracks & closed trails

[Binaural]

Ah, cheers for the info dcrofty. Gotta watch those pesky community involvement groups like NPA...

Hmm, build days dancelled because riders didn't show up? Kinda takes the wind out of the protagonists sails

Binaural there are loads of singletracks in the RNP you can ride, including some specificly designated as MTB trails. What about the Loftus to Heathcote area, and Heathcote to Waterfall on the western side of the freeway, for starters.

The Kuring-gai park is the one I'm talking about here, which in the press release at the start of this post is the one where all singletrack use by MTBs is forbidden. The park down south is a different story, I acknowledge.

 

[dcrofty]

This suggests that either political pressure prevent them changing the usage rules, or else they just don't want to and hence will not unless forced to by the court of public opinion.

The thing is all national parks in NSW are governed by the NPWS Act. It sets out how parks are to be run according to a list of management objectives. Conservation is #1 with a rocket. Provision of recreation facilities comes a distant 5th (from memory)

So even if NPWS Staff are rabid pro MTB its still hard for them to permit tracks and its pretty damn easy to say no if staff aren't keen to take the torch and run with it.

Essentially we as riders need to lobby the State government to a) change the NPWS Act and b) give NPWS more funding. Which is why it was so disappointing that there was a crappy response to the Parks usage public consultation a little while ago because that is were we really should have been focussing energy to get better access.

 

[sammydog]

Guys keep working with parks and things may happen. Take Glenrock in Newcastle for example, as we speak Glen Jacobs and his World Trail crew are hard at work putting in new singletrack and doing repair work with the assistance of NPWS. This didnt come about overnight and was all down to a handful of dedicated guys staying on the case until they were heard, so as skid marks said do the right thing and it may happen.
Good Luck

I think Glenrock is a case in point of what can be acheived if people want to work for it, and are patient.

Five years of working with NPWS, not slagging out with generally ill informed comments, and we are at the point of having World Trail come in and construct trail.

We have a training weekend for volunteer maintenance people next week and things are looking good, and this is before the draft POM is even off exhibition.

We are now consulted when works in the park may impact on our trails.

What has been achieved in Glenrock is a new benchmark for where the NPWS are heading, the problem is, if too many of the mtb community run off the rails in a big way, then it will prove the nay sayers correct and we will head back in the opposite direction very quick.

I know other park managers are sitting back to see what happens up here before they move on their own patched of dirt.

To those here rubbishing the NPWS for enforcing their legislation, have you

a) spoken to the local NPWS to see if there is a solution,
b) lobbied at a higher level.

or have you just decided

c) fuck this its all to hard I'll just ride.

Option c is fine, but don't complain if you get fined, it just goes with the territory. Personally, I feel that NP's have their place and after two weeks hiking Tasmania, I almost wish there were more areas locked up. Some things we do need to preserve and a poorly conceived, constructed and maintained bit of single trail may not in some cases be appropriate in a park.

We as a mtb community are starting to get the respect of the NPWS, lets not stuff it up. With respect comes access to the table in deciding the form that park access takes. Its not a quick process, but if you want it the fight is worth it.

Just because we own a bike, doesn't necessarily give us the right to acess a parcel of land.

 

[thecat]

I think the NPA would ensure that it became political, they do not approve of MTB in parks.

Actually the NPA (National Parks Association, which has no official connection to National Parks and Wildlife Service) submission to the NP taskforce was a little surprising in this regard

Many protected areas, especially those close to Sydney, are accessible by public transport and many more can be reached easily on bicycle. Other options could be developed. There is enormous potential to promote ‘parks by public transport’ and ‘parks by bike’ through the website and brochures. Emerging conditions (fuel prices, carbon measures) make this a potential winner.

Now I very much doubt they had single track in mind when they wrote that but it signifies a significant change in mind set from them.

 

[garfield84]

another "secret" trail gone

 

[FR Drew]

I've noticed in a few spots in this thread people saying how great CORC have got things down here.

Yes, great things have been achieved and I don't in any way wish to pour cold water on those achievements, however...

A few things that should be pointed out:

• CORC does not have acess to build whatever they want in Mount Stromlo (formerly a pine forest), the area is very tightly controlled by Territory Venue and Events. There are extensive restrictions regarding which fire trails riders are permitted to use. Event bookings also mean that the whole forest can be closed to riders.
• All the other legal ride areas in the ACT are in forestry areas (pine forests), not in Nature Parks.
• Any trails that are in Nature Parks are on borrowed time and riders using them could quite easily be fined, precisely as happened in the NWPS case.
• Work to try and get permission for limited access to the Nature Parks (which will almost definitely not include DH) has been ongoing for a decade now.

 

[Gruntled]

I think Glenrock is a case in point of what can be acheived if people want to work for it, and are patient.

Five years of working with NPWS, not slagging out with generally ill informed comments, and we are at the point of having World Trail come in and construct trail.

We have a training weekend for volunteer maintenance people next week and things are looking good, and this is before the draft POM is even off exhibition.

We are now consulted when works in the park may impact on our trails.

What has been achieved in Glenrock is a new benchmark for where the NPWS are heading, the problem is, if too many of the mtb community run off the rails in a big way, then it will prove the nay sayers correct and we will head back in the opposite direction very quick.

I know other park managers are sitting back to see what happens up here before they move on their own patched of dirt.

To those here rubbishing the NPWS for enforcing their legislation, have you

a) spoken to the local NPWS to see if there is a solution,
b) lobbied at a higher level.

or have you just decided

c) fuck this its all to hard I'll just ride.

Option c is fine, but don't complain if you get fined, it just goes with the territory. Personally, I feel that NP's have their place and after two weeks hiking Tasmania, I almost wish there were more areas locked up. Some things we do need to preserve and a poorly conceived, constructed and maintained bit of single trail may not in some cases be appropriate in a park.

We as a mtb community are starting to get the respect of the NPWS, lets not stuff it up. With respect comes access to the table in deciding the form that park access takes. Its not a quick process, but if you want it the fight is worth it.

Just because we own a bike, doesn't necessarily give us the right to acess a parcel of land.

Very well said!

 

[sammydog]

I've noticed in a few spots in this thread people saying how great CORC have got things down here.

Yes, great things have been achieved and I don't in any way wish to pour cold water on those achievements, however...

A few things that should be pointed out:

• CORC does not have acess to build whatever they want in Mount Stromlo (formerly a pine forest), the area is very tightly controlled by Territory Venue and Events. There are extensive restrictions regarding which fire trails riders are permitted to use. Event bookings also mean that the whole forest can be closed to riders.
• All the other legal ride areas in the ACT are in forestry areas (pine forests), not in Nature Parks.
• Any trails that are in Nature Parks are on borrowed time and riders using them could quite easily be fined, precisely as happened in the NWPS case.
• Work to try and get permission for limited access to the Nature Parks (which will almost definitely not include DH) has been ongoing for a decade now.

There has also been a lot of work go into getting you guys to where you are. That shouldn't be forgotten.

I am glad though that you have pointed out that your trails are in Forestry areas, not national parks. People need to differentiate NP's from Forestry land. Generally Forests NSW are very open to recreational use of their forrests, but they don't operate with the same constraints as the NPWS.

 

[FR Drew]

Definitely buckets of work lobbying and dealing with Governemnt and other authorities to get where we are, I wasn't in the least suggesting it was otherwise, but it's not as if we have a National Parks free for all going on down here, despite all the hard work.

In the next 12 to 18 months or thereabouts, the riding framework in the ACT is set to change pretty markedly. How much of that will be for the better I don't know.

 

[Keyroo]

i didn't even read the rest of the posts, this is an ongoing debate that just goes backwards and forwards,,

as of last night i'm pretty pissed off, around my area there are NO riding tracks, now you think i'm joking about this, to get to the next town there are approx 6 walking trails all of which have no bike signs in front of them, the only way to travel to the next town is to ride on the road this road is windy and thin, the side of the road is gravel and mud and has a steep drop off the side of it, riding this road i've almost been run off several times,

this isn't just the case here, i'm seeing this in a lot of places,

so we aren't allowed to ride on any of the trails yet they give us no option,

now here is my BIG gripe, there is a local track near my place, it's not supposed to be riden, but given that our nearest legal off road mountain bike track is lysterfield which ONLY caters for cross country riders (and is still a 20 - 30 minute drive) my mates and i have riden it from time to time, we do it well out of hours were there will be walkers, the sign states that mountain bikes aren't allowed due to it being a sensitive lyerbird habitat.

Now due to the recent bushfires they are turning this into a fire trail, they just ran three bulldozers through the middle of the track, this track used to be a thin single track,the ferns hung over the track and it was impossible to deviate from it making it minimal impact on the environment, last night we went there to go for a late ride, it's now 3 1/2 metres wide, they have knocked down trees, laid gravel down which the rain has washed off into the local stream and now will be a highway for tour busses full of people, i understand the fire fighters need access to this area, and i support that, but for parks to bitch about mountain bikers riding these trails and then for them to do this, thats a bit hypocritical don't you think??

i agree building in these parks is a no no, do that on private property, but for fucks sake, in this area we have NO other option and i'm really not exagerating, there is even a trail that follows the side of one of the roads down, it's pretty boring but with little other option we rode it anyway, to find out that because on the map it's technically national park it is illegal for us to ride there


ok vent over, flame me all you want, but when i can't ride because every single off road trail (bar 12 foot wide smooth fire trails in mt dandneong) is illegal and my only option is to get in the car and travel a minimum of an hour and a half to kinglake or 2 1/2 hours to the youies it almost makes me want to sell the bike, what good is it if i can't ride it...

Matt

 

[BrindiCruiser]

In the next 12 to 18 months or thereabouts, the riding framework in the ACT is set to change pretty markedly. How much of that will be for the better I don't know.

You tease. I assume that you are referring to Majura getting smaller due to the new road, and Sparrow getting harvested. Care to elaborate?

 

[FR Drew]

You tease. I assume that you are referring to Majura getting smaller due to the new road, and Sparrow getting harvested. Care to elaborate?

4 lanes plus an interchange through Majura, tree thinning plus a road through the guts of Sparrow, but possibly more singletrack access elsewhere (Pine Island and other areas)

 

[sammydog]

4 lanes plus an interchange through Majura, tree thinning plus a road through the guts of Sparrow, but possibly more singletrack access elsewhere (Pine Island and other areas)

The mont then will be my first and last spin at Sparrow then.....seems a shame after everything I have been told about the place.

As for encasing Majura in bitumen, the best way to conserve things is to encase them in concrete, so I can't see the issue. In a few years when oil runs out and cars are useless we can just dig up and reclaim the trails.

Easy.

 

[FR Drew]

The mont then will be my first and last spin at Sparrow then.....seems a shame after everything I have been told about the place.

As for encasing Majura in bitumen, the best way to conserve things is to encase them in concrete, so I can't see the issue. In a few years when oil runs out and cars are useless we can just dig up and reclaim the trails.

Easy.

It is currently far from certain what the time frame is for works at Sparrow Hill and what impact the tree thinning there will have. Paul Cole is in discussions with the forest managers regarding retention of as many trees as possible in the section of the forest we ride. It may well be that much of the stuff will still be enjoyable in another 12 months time. At this stage it's just too early to know.

 

[chips_with_everything]

The take-outs from this for me are:

1) NPWS react to illegal track construction and use of illegal tracks,
2) NPWS have issues with DH, on account of high slope therefore high impact, &
3) Fines are rare for low impact respectful behaviour.

 

[Fat_Ride]

When I first read this thread I was overseas but since getting back on Monday I went and checked out the tracks I ride in Garigal National Park (2 mins from my place) for any clear signage, etc to back up any notion that bicycles are banned from the track.

From Tryon road to the Eastern Arterial there is a small section of track which is marked 'no bikes'... fair enough, take the road around the the beginning of the fire trail on the other side of Eastern Arterial.

Head down the fire trail (two creeks track) and there are a couple of off shoots with signage for 'no bikes'... cool, i'm not heading down there!

At the end of the fire trail the track heads up with no signage for 'no bikes'. I rode through to Roseville bridge and back on the track and saw no 'no bikes' signage, I did however see no motorbikes.

Anyone who has ridden this track would know that it is a very rocky, technical track (i'll get photos) and is not what I would consider a smooth and easy track suitable for your run of the mill elderly or little kiddie bushwalk.

If i was to be approached by a ranger on this track in particular I would be putting up a pretty strong case before accepting any $500 fine!!

 

[chips_with_everything]

Please be super sensitive to the Manager's big issue in this area... illegal track construction.
Don't antagonize their rangers. Be respectful instead.

They are already very PO'd with people cutting tracks in, especially the one down from the Bahai temple to create a loop. And it doesn't help us to have a bike shop advertising the track by parking their van there.

There is a very real need to be seen to be doing the right thing, especially at the moment. Bad stories about cyclists from this Manager are likely to ripple through to other Managers. Well they already have, and up to a very senior level in the organization as well.

Now is the time to engage with NPWS positively in this area, and work with them.

 

[Caffeine]

ok vent over, flame me all you want, but when i can't ride because every single off road trail (bar 12 foot wide smooth fire trails in mt dandneong) is illegal and my only option is to get in the car and travel a minimum of an hour and a half to kinglake or 2 1/2 hours to the youies it almost makes me want to sell the bike, what good is it if i can't ride it...

Matt

ok vent over, flame me all you want, but when i can't race my car because on every single road it is illegal and my only option is to get in the car and travel a minimum of an hour to eastern creek or oran park or 2 1/2 hours to wakefield it almost makes me want to sell the car, what good is it if i can't race it...

 

[bike182mtb]

look at the end of the day if national parks wants to stop people riding or making illegal trails then fining then wont stop them.ask your self WHY do they go to the trouble of riding or bluiding them ?.because there are no legal ones .if there is legal trails around then why would you go and risk a fine and do alot of work when you can just jump on your bike and ride ?.if they build or talk to us about building what we want then problem solved.if they sell mt bike then give us some where to ride.this also goes for motorbikes and 4wheel drives.the other thing is STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS HERE AND WRITE TO YOUR LOCAL MEMBER [ITS A ELECTION YEAR]if they got 1 million letters[i know alot] from mountain bikes how long do you thing before they made a mount bike park ???????

 

[akashra]

I like the above advise, so long as you don't also copy the sentence structure and grammar if you want to be taken seriously