Muscle Recovery

Thanks everyone for the advice.

My main interest is post ride recovery and reasonably happy with the race performance at this stage.

Giving Glutamine a go to assist with the recovery. In two weeks I have the D100 MTB race and the following day have a 135km Hell of the North road race.

If I had some more time I would start using Beta alanine but from what I have read the benefits aren't really their after a few weeks.

Does anyone have pictures regarding these foam rollers, What are they and what do you do with them? Hope its not to kinky?!?

Found this. Is this correct http://vimeo.com/13724063
 
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Wife, Olive oil, and then you discover WHY roadies shave. ;)

edit -amazing how a bit of foam from clark rubber costs $2-00, but when it comes from the physio, its magically worth $30
 
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dusty_nz said:
choppie!
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I'm not sure if anyone has actually said but - a 6 hour ride, I presume at a decent pace, you should be sore afterwards. This is completely normal and basically there is nothing you can do about it (Yes, it's worse as we get older).

I've been following this thread with some interest, knowing that I was going to a post exercise muscle recovery seminar this morning + Prof. Ken Nosaka was out over from Perth a few weeks ago presenting mechanisms of muscle damage, probably the #1 authority in the world and very generous with his time.

The inflammation process is causing the DOMS, it will run its time course no matter what you do, taking some NSAIDs immediately following may attenuate the extent of inflammation, and therefore shorten the time course, too late know. Asprin, has no effect on sports performance and there is no decent evidence to support reducing/helping doms.

Massage and or stretching waste of time, it gives an acute relief that has no effect on performance of time course of recovery. Nothing wrong with a foam roller, they work very well, especially if the Mrs is non compliant to massage requests.

Ice baths / hot - cold, waste of time mostly, if professional footballers do it, it's usually a waste of time. The hydrostatic pressure may help recovery, along with the cold reducing inflammation, but data presented today showed people who did not do ice baths recovered faster! No convincing evidence for or against.

lactic acid returns to normal levels within the hour, creatine kinase peaks around 48 hrs (and non of the above change this), no evidence to support these affecting recovery.

If it was a short session you were getting this sore from, or unaccustomed exercise I'd be worried.

Eat a good diet - taking the protein you mention is good, replenish your fluid levels asap (driftking metion pre-post ride weighing in another post, great apporach), take some nsaids immediately following... and if you are dead serious about a fast recovery can't go past anabolic steroids, they work.

It's a shame the tour team doctors are so secretive about what they do, nothing published, I imagine because a lot of it borders on the illegal/unethical.
 
Thanks to the one with the Irrational Wife.

Have been noticing for a while that my post recovery has been taking longer, 4+ days but only after 100%+ extended efforts. I generally have a problem with taking it easy, Seems like such a waste of time otherwise.

Generally most 2 hour rides I may result in slight soreness if I am required to put somebody in their place on a long extented hill climb or sprint.
Extended discomfort and soreness on significant rides. Eg Road ride of 135km and 2400m climbing. Most hills over 10% gradient and some touching on 20%. MTB 90km and 1500m climbing on rough single track.

I only take the Protein / muscle exe drinks during periods of high exercise. Starting a week before and finish a week after.

Otherwise I have a high vegetable/salad intake. Lots of beef and chicken salads. No tablets (Multi or other stuff). High carbs in the morning and taper off during the day unless exercising.

Lots of fluids, Mainly water unless riding and have electrolytes (1 tab per litre) in the camelbak. Cold days aim for 1 litre / hour. Hot I increase this

Riding fuel is upto 300cal/hour of multidextrin with 1/8th protein for flavour and other minor pluses. This is in a drink bottle on the frame

This is for rides over 1 hour. Less than a hour I just use water.
 
dusty_nz said:
Thanks to the one with the Irrational Wife.
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She woke up angry last week saying that she had a dream that I cheated on her, I was abused then got the cold shoulder for a week! I think she expected an apology.

Yeah, it sounds like your are going pretty hard, I could even ride this at the moment (not even close) - "Road ride of 135km and 2400m climbing. Most hills over 10% gradient and some touching on 20%. MTB 90km and 1500m climbing on rough single track."

There is nothing wrong with riding with sore legs, it won't make them any worse than they are, but obviously performance is going to suffer.

But if possible, if you are going to do some massive rides, plan ahead to have the legs feeling good prior to the event/ride, so taper down the intensity and volume slightly and following the event/ride do the same again. It's not possible to go at 100% all the time and often doing a wave like periodisation (hard ride, easy ride, moderate ride.... cycling something like this) will minimise the recovery time slightly.

But, being 40 and riding this volume and intensity (that's a shit load of climbing) - you must be in the 95 percentile for fitness on a bike for your age.

I just asked a bloke in the office who works with various olympic cycling sqauds at the moment, he said the the boys he trains, if they go really hard for a session it be 3-5 day recovery time, also highlighted that over training will blow of recovery times and gut health (?) - food allergies, said to get a GP referral to get some testing done (I have no idea bout this).
 
dusty_nz said:
Does anyone have pictures regarding these foam rollers, What are they and what do you do with them? Hope its not to kinky?!?
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I use a foam roller (canned my ITB the first time I used it), and my physio has his own blog with videos on how to use it.

ITB release:

http://www.bodyleadership.com.au/_blog/The_Body_Leadership_Blog/tag/Thigh/

Calf muscle release:

http://www.bodyleadership.com.au/_blog/The_Body_Leadership_Blog/post/Release_Tight_Calf_Muscles/

Thoracic release:

http://www.bodyleadership.com.au/_blog/The_Body_Leadership_Blog/post/Thoracic_Stiffness/
 
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Weigh yourself before and after a ride. In general a weight loss of 1kg is equivalent to 1L of fluid. This will help you be more specific with your needs on the trail and you can slowly dial in your fluid needs during and after the ride. 1L an hour is a good start but as you know weather and intensity can dramatically increase this, becoming dehydrated will clearly decrease your race performance but won't be helping your recovery either.
 
driftking said:
Weigh yourself before and after a ride. In general a weight loss of 1kg is equivalent to 1L of fluid. This will help you be more specific with your needs on the trail and you can slowly dial in your fluid needs during and after the ride. 1L an hour is a good start but as you know weather and intensity can dramatically increase this, becoming dehydrated will clearly decrease your race performance but won't be helping your recovery either.
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Yeah, Major lesson last weekend.

Jarradale 6H solo. Started off okay, First few laps at a good pace, Intake of Carbs was on track, Regular drinks. End of the 2nd lap started to get sore which was a bit unusual, 3rd lap was in major pain and noticed my stomach contents was at my throat, Feeling parched but couldn't drink more.

Stopped carb and kept trying to force fluids.

at 3 hours I was in a world of pain, Could not get out of the saddle without cramping, kidney was very sore, Back, shoulders, thighs, neck, head, brain, No power, cramps and exhausted.
Stopped for a swap out of carbs and fluids at the 1/2 way point and noticed I has only consumed a litre. Stomach had shutdown due to carbs high water demands and dehydration.

Struggled on for another lap, Adding more electrolytes to the water. Not enjoying it and lap times had blown out.

Start of the 6th lap I stopped and was sick over this small tree with 4+ hours of carbs and fluid. Complete empty. I then drank about a litre of water and electrolytes and back in the saddle.

5 minutes latter I started to recover, Still cramped and sore but power and energy started coming back, Speed improved and started pulling people back in.

Last few laps massive improvement and managed 9th in my class.

Have now brought a camelbak flow meter to ensure an approx hydration rate.
 
Also check the glucose percentage in the fluid.Longer events and shorter events tend to use different percentage needs, I am not sure what they are or how effective it is but it does seem to be a topic I have read about briefly when doing other research. Also make sure you take in enough salt and potassium, this is hard to get a gauge but with some research you should be able to find a way to work it out so you can tweak these needs too.

Again remember to begin a loading period a few days prior to long events.

MWI - you got any information in regards to any of this, you're the go to facts man. lol
 
driftking said:
Curious
Olympic medalist in riding or something else?
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That would be nice, then I could earn a living from sport :p
Too big to be road/cross country and not enough fast twitch to be track.

I'm a rower.


As for Mywifesirrational:

Interesting post about regularly using nsaids for recovery (that is going to affect bone strength long term I have been told).

I wouldn't underestimate the effect of properly flushing out lactic acid and maintaining muscle tension (ie keeping them loose - but not overtreating and being too loose). Appropriate muscle tension will allow muscle groups to work together more efficiently, and decrease risk of injury. It is probably not AS important in a sport that has limited range of motion, but it is definitely a big factor in rowing, and I would think for cyclists in extreme positions eg road time triallist. Many of the strategies such as foam roller work/ massage / post ride active recovery etc work on this concept. I was still noticing the difference 1 week after of not warming down after my Olympic final.

As for icebaths, the cold does reduce the inflammation if done right (long enough duration). If cold had no effect, there would be no point icing injuries to reduce inflammation. And while annecdotal evidence is not the most scientific I have done enough sessions in my career both with and without ice baths and can say conclusively that I do bounce back better after them. As for what the studies say, that changes on a weekly basis.



My advice for everyone is try everything you can and find what works for you. If that is hopping on one leg while singing with a fish on your head, then so be it.
 
willsy01 said:
Paul van der Ploeg is a massive unit and he kills it......190cm. Give it a crack!!!
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Thought about it. Done enough riding to know I could be good at cycling (national level) but not great (would be a back marker on world level), and I'm just about to turn 30 so it would be a brief career too.

I also dabbled with ironman triathlon (even though i cant swim) and was good enough to be a back marker at worlds.

Plus why ruin a fun hobby by turning it into a job :p
 
What are people's thoughts on the most effective ways to combine lifting in the gym with heavy cardio work such as kickboxing?

I'm a fairly novice lifter so will be sticking with a full body workout for the foreseeable future. I've spoken with the guys I train with and my coach but there wasn't really a clear opinion.
Should I be hitting the gym immediately after a kickboxing session and lower the volume in the gym a little bit (nominally a 5x5 program but reduce it to 3x5 on the big lifts)? Or would I be better to hit the gym on days off from kickboxing?

Example:

Monday: Rest
Tuesday: kickboxing + gym (reduced volume for the big lifts)
Wednesday: Rest
Thursday: Kickboxing + gym (reduced volume for the big lifts)
Friday: Rest
Saturday: gym
Sunday: Rest

Or


Monday: Gym
Tuesday: kickboxing
Wednesday: Gym
Thursday: Kickboxing
Friday: Gym
Saturday: Rest
Sunday: Rest
 
driftking said:
Also check the glucose percentage in the fluid.Longer events and shorter events tend to use different percentage needs, I am not sure what they are or how effective it is but it does seem to be a topic I have read about briefly when doing other research. Also make sure you take in enough salt and potassium, this is hard to get a gauge but with some research you should be able to find a way to work it out so you can tweak these needs too.

Again remember to begin a loading period a few days prior to long events.

MWI - you got any information in regards to any of this, you're the go to facts man. lol
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Sounds reasonable to me, but besides regular blood testing, I'm not sure how to measure this stuff? but I don't have much expertise here.

Joel O said:
Monday: Gym
Tuesday: kickboxing
Wednesday: Gym
Thursday: Kickboxing
Friday: Gym
Saturday: Rest
Sunday: Rest
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This is the way I would do it, minimises the concurrent training aspect that will limit strength gains from the gym.

The only thing I might change would be to move the friday session to a saturday session and make this a very intense workout, and taper it down a bit for the following Monday. But if you ride every weekend that's not going to work and better than the way you have it.
 
dusty_nz said:
So I had my 40th a few months back and one of the things I have noticed is my recovery time between hard rides is a lot slower.

Basically taking 4-5+ days to recover from hard rides. Basically sore muscles.

Did a 6 hour enduro (solo) on sunday and still performance impaired(thur).
Went for a flat easy road ride yesterday and really noticed it.

Any tricks to improve this recovery time?

I have a healthy diet. Lots of leaf and vegetables, First few days I increased my red meat intake for both protein and amino acids.

Lots of water,

What else should I try?

Update
I am taking Protein / whey (2 x 2 scoops/day) after big rides for a few days and muscle eaze (1 tbsp/day)
Nothing else!

[Get used to it, I turned 40 5 years ago,

Im not sure how much worse it actually gets or if Im just getting soft, that said, a REALLY EASY 30 min spin the next morning ( or if a morning race ride late that afternoon) helps me heaps. The trick seams to be keeping it light and easy. Then take some time off. I reckon it takes me a week to get over a 6hr now.

Ive tried all the suppliments and stuff, I cant notice any measurable benifit. The only other thing that works for me is making sure I have adequate salt (good old fashioned table salt).............we're not couch potatoes so a bit of salt is necessary IMO

Nozza]
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Joel O said:
Monday: Gym
Tuesday: kickboxing
Wednesday: Gym I'd swap this out for some light cardio - eg an hour long run or similar.
Thursday: Kickboxing
Friday: Gym
Saturday: I would replace this with an easy session on the mat's working on technique etc.
Sunday: Rest
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In my experience 2 days on the mat's isnt enough to build good form. The difference in people between 2 days and 3 days is more than double.
 
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