New XC groupsets rant - are ShRAMano run by retarded marketers?

RichJS

Likes Dirt
So, SRAM have countered Shimano's 2011 XTR and XT 10-speed groupsets with their own models - all the way down to X7:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/sram-x9-and-x0-components-first-look-25741
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/new-10-speed-sram-x7-unveiled-25411

Does anyone here really want X7 level gear to run 2x10? As I see it, there's:

Pros -
Improved chainline from 2 rings upfront
Slight weight decrease from losing 1 ring and skinnier chain, negated by

Cons -
Slight weight increase from bigger rear cassette (if going the 36t option) and more solid freehub required to handle the torque
Much lower range of gearing
Thinner chain = much increased wear on rollers, particularly on dirt
Thinner chain = Powerlinks less reliable (on the road at least, they're replaced by single-use-only "Powerlocks")
Incompatible with almost-universal 9-speed

Does anyone shift gears on their 11-32t 9-speed XTR cassette and think "gee, I really wish each shift was 11% closer in ratios"? I don't know about everyone else but probably 50% of the time I shift, it's 2+ gears on my cassette at once.

I can understand the carbon chi-chi crowd rushing their way towards a dozen gears on the rear cluster so they can stay within 2% of their chosen cadance of 96RPM as they spin endlessly along. However, when mountain biking SS is getting more popular than ever, surely some of the durability, simplicity, cost of SSing isn't lost on the geared crowd?

I'd seriously take a quality 8-speed group for both road and MTB use for the extra durability, and I'm having 10-speed groups whose Cons outweight the Pros thrust at me.
 
Last edited:

bear the bear

Is a real bear
You did notice that there was no mention of XTR in the release?
As usual with Shimano, XTR will be released with all the bells and whistles 2x10, 10%, 5% lighter, better shifting etc.
They will then feed off this by trickling it down through the other groups.
They have done this previously with both their MTB grouppo's and road
 

mcdoned

Likes Dirt
I'd seriously take a quality 8-speed group for both road and MTB use for the extra durability, and I'm having 10-speed groups whose Cons outweight the Pros thrust at me.
You're not alone in these thoughts.... I think many people sighed and shrugged when 10spd mountain happened. A good 8spd group would be fantastic - I got my paws on some old 8spd XT chains and their durability is phenomenal compared to 9spd gear, let alone 10spd.

On the flipside, Alfine's getting more viable too - up to 11spd and 400 odd % range. Not yet Rohloff by a long shot, but a quarter the price.

I don't mind the high-end race application of XX/XTR etc, but in terms of SLX and X7 etc, very much agreeing with your rant!
 

chops007

Likes Dirt
hmmm sounds like you got out of the wrong side of bed lol.

i would assume releasing x7 and cheaper groupsets would be because you hve to run something on cheap built mtbs..
id like the new sram built like XX 9gear cassette mmm light.
im not after weaking my chain and 2x9 is enough gears for me...
gona be sweet to ride the first climb at dw with..

chops
 

RichJS

Likes Dirt
i would assume releasing x7 and cheaper groupsets would be because you hve to run something on cheap built mtbs..
What, like 3x9?

You did notice that there was no mention of XTR in the release?
As usual with Shimano, XTR will be released with all the bells and whistles 2x10, 10%, 5% lighter, better shifting etc.
I noticed that it was an article about SRAM, not Shimano. We've already seen months ago that 2011 XTR and XT will be 10-speed, and apparently SLX will be too. Still, at least Shimano are offering Triples up front. As to whether it is lighter or shifts better than SRAM, I'm not so sure. I certainly like my X0 rear mech, with 2:1 actuation etc more than others..
 
Last edited:

Jaredp

Likes Dirt
Is there such a thing as a non retarded marketer? :p
Their not retarded, they are very smart. They sat in an office, dreamt up a way to justify their income. Pitched it, Put it into production. Lo and behold the world is buying the stuff. Job done.

Pretty smart I say. Have a look at the premium the Bike manufactuteres are putting on XX specced gear. As opposed to XTR or X0 specced. Its a nice premium for temporary exclusivity.
 

highharry

Likes Dirt
Does this mean they have cut high end 9 speed out of their product range. i.e. no more x-7, x-9 or x-0 9 speed groupsets. Hopefully they also put some reasonable prices on them so people flocking after the latest elusive 2x10 can spend their money locally and not jump onto a website and order the upgrade 2 months in advanced and for half the price.
 

RichJS

Likes Dirt
Does this mean they have cut high end 9 speed out of their product range. i.e. no more x-7, x-9 or x-0 9 speed groupsets.
im not after weaking my chain and 2x9 is enough gears for me...
So, if you want to stay with 9-speed it looks like Deore or X.5 is your only new option from 2011 onwards. I guess some of the older models (EG M770 XT 9spd) will continue to be manufactured for a while..
 

k3n!f

Likes Bikes and Dirt
What bothers me most about the new Shimano stuff is the 24-32-42 chain ring. They have essentially reduced the available gear range while offering almost no advantage over a 26-39 setup. They claim the point is that you no longer have to shift on the cassette when changing on the front chain rings; since when has that been a major issue?

It seems like the marketing department is inventing reasons to change things to encourage consumers to purchase the latest and greatest.

9 speed will be staying on my bike for as long as parts are available.
 

Win

Likes Dirt
Pros -
Improved chainline from 2 rings upfront
Slight weight decrease from losing 1 ring and skinnier chain, negated by.
I will argue one of those "pros" away.
Surely a triple ring has a better chain line?
Granny, 1,2,3,4 at the back
Middle, 2,3,4,5,6,7
Outer, 5,6,7,8,9
 

RichJS

Likes Dirt
I will argue one of those "pros" away.
Surely a triple ring has a better chain line?
Granny, 1,2,3,4 at the back
Middle, 2,3,4,5,6,7
Outer, 5,6,7,8,9
Actually, you can use a lot more than that. The middle ring is good for all 9 positions on the cassette. (Hence the popularity of 1x9.) Only the big-big or small-small combinations if used on 3x9 make the chain too crossed-over.

2x9 allegedly means all combinations are "usable."
 
Last edited:

DaGonz

Eats Squid
yeah it's going to be horrible,

lighter weight, stronger, better shifting, more useable gears and/or closer ratios...

I can't imagine why anyone would want any of those....

Cheers
Spoonie
 

tomacropod

Likes Dirt
yeah it's going to be horrible,

lighter weight, stronger, better shifting, more useable gears and/or closer ratios...

I can't imagine why anyone would want any of those....

Cheers
Spoonie
On paper this all looks really good - but what about when I have to sell a $1200 SLX 10spd mountain bike to a punter who just wants to thrash around and have fun. Do I lie and tell him that his drivetrain is super tough and won't need much maintenance like his old 7spd clunker, or do I tell him that he should ideally clean and lube his chain after every ride, clean his chainrings and cassette after every five rides, and replace his chain every 1000-1500km?

10 speed on consumer mountain bikes will be a huge disaster, just as it has been on consumer road bikes.

- Joel
 

bear the bear

Is a real bear
Blah blah bla

10 speed on consumer mountain bikes will be a huge disaster, just as it has been on consumer road bikes.

- Joel
Bullsh!t pull your head out of your a$$ that is the biggest load of cr@p I have seen on here.
Being an ex-roadie I have over 250,000km in the last 6 years on 10spd and I know (and am not speculating as I do all my own maintenance) that the wear and tear is no higher then 9spd.
 

casnell

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Bullsh!t pull your head out of your a$$ that is the biggest load of cr@p I have seen on here.
Being an ex-roadie I have over 250,000km in the last 6 years on 10spd and I know (and am not speculating as I do all my own maintenance) that the wear and tear is no higher then 9spd.
I'd agree there with road 10 speed, in fact I've gone 11 speed.
 

tojo

Likes Bikes
yeah it's going to be horrible,

lighter weight, stronger, better shifting, more useable gears and/or closer ratios...

I can't imagine why anyone would want any of those....

Cheers
Spoonie
lighter weight? yes.
Stronger - i doubt a thinner chain will be stronger
better shifting? - When brand new yes. I'd imagine 10 speed with the closer spacing on the cluster will require a lot more maintenance to avoid problems than a wider spaced cluster would. eg. cables
More usable gears? - There are enough usable gears already. People don't want or need more.

For a select minority it is probably a good thing. But for the majority of riders it isn't really any better than what is already being used. But people won't have a choice anyway. It is here so get used to it!
 

mcdoned

Likes Dirt
Bullsh!t pull your head out of your a$$ that is the biggest load of cr@p I have seen on here.
Never forget, the internet is serious business. :)

There's less material in 10spd chains and cassettes (smaller cross-section). Given the prevalence of side loads and dirt and crud, that would suggest that they would wear faster. I would also imagine that an experienced mechanic might be in a position to have an opinion too, having maintained numerous bikes in addition to his own.

Make sure you say "Hi!" at the next race, you might even get to meet Joel, maybe you can repeat your statements/insults face-to-face. ;)
 
Top