New XC groupsets rant - are ShRAMano run by retarded marketers?

jham66

Likes Dirt
I love it!! As soon as the price comes to a decent level on CRC, or a cheap 2nd hand comes along, I will get myself an x9 crankset. I always hate myself a little when I "need" the granny gear. I would still keep the 9sp on the rear though, for as long as possible, the 10 is a bit stupid.....
 

akashra

Eats Squid
So.... does anyone have the inside scoop on when 2x10 X0 or X9 will be available in Oz? Keen to spec it on a new ride but not sure if it's weeks or months away.

Cheers
This is the irritating thing about the bike industry - they do paper launches. They're extremely tight-lipped about any info of upcoming products for 24 months while it's in planning, then they launch it, and it's another 6 months until you can buy the products... but they'll happily bitch and whine if anyone leaks product info or speculates on what's coming next. IMO it's poor business, but they obviously don't care.
 

bear the bear

Is a real bear
They will be - at least early press releases depict the X0 and X9 groupsets as 2 * 10, using XX-esque cranks and cassettes.

Regarding your earlier outburst, your subsequent posts reinforce my point. My concern is not for the racer, wannabe racer or hardcore e-biker, thus not anyone reading this thread. My concern is for the consumer, the punter. X7 and SLX are priced very accessibly and found on bikes down to $1000, almost a throwaway price these days. I believe that longevity and low maintenance requirements of gear at this price level have more to do with positivity of experience than performance or gear range does.

As for your personal attack on my experience - I work on around 2000 bikes per year, ranging from shitters, to mid range, to high end road and mtb. I'm in a good position to correlate bike type with user-maintenance, miles done, and subsequent wear. I also work on the retail end, selling bikes, parts and talking to riders about their experiences with their bikes. I've been racing and riding all sorts of bikes for over 10 years. It's foolish to attack people you don't know, no matter the forum. My Jack Russell will never learn that, but you might.

My experience tells me that 9spd drivetrains (chains, cassettes, chainrings) wear out slightly faster than 8spd drivetrains, but that 10spd drivetrains wear out significantly faster than 9spd drivetrains. I'm not an engineer, but have theorised that this is due to the narrower load-bearing surface in the 10spd chain coming in below a deformation threshold with typical rider power inputs, maybe an engineering student here can help with that one.

Chain wear aside, there are also issues of shifting accuracy as has been mentioned in this thread already. The more sprockets you have to squeeze into a 130 or 135mm dropout, the closer they are, and as such the smaller the detents in the shifter ratchet. This requires that a smaller unit of cable pull is utilised in order to make the derailleur pull across the smaller distance to the next sprocket. With 100% efficient cable this is not an issue, but no shifting cable transmits force with 100% efficiency. There is always some compression of the outer cable, some stretch of the inner cable which reduces this efficiency.

With new cable and perfect adjustment, 10spd systems shift fine. In reality though, it's a bicycle. It gets ridden outside, dropped, leaned against things, left in the elements and generally neglected. The efficiency of that cable is only going to get worse the minute it leaves the shop or workshop. Let it get below a certain level and shifting goes to rubbish - and that level is higher for 10 spd systems than 9, for 9 than 8.

That's just cable, when you include issues such as jockey wheel and bushing wear, misaligned hangers and derailleurs, worn cassette teeth etc, it gets much more complicated.

See you at the races.

- Joel
They will be - at least early press releases depict the X0 and X9 groupsets as 2 * 10, using XX-esque cranks and cassettes.
Thanks for the information..... it's the first piece of fact you have provided so far

Regarding your earlier outburst, your subsequent posts reinforce my point. My concern is not for the racer, wannabe racer or hardcore e-biker, thus not anyone reading this thread. My concern is for the consumer, the punter. X7 and SLX are priced very accessibly and found on bikes down to $1000, almost a throwaway price these days. I believe that longevity and low maintenance requirements of gear at this price level have more to do with positivity of experience than performance or gear range does.
If I'm Joe Punter, I'm going to want the most value for my money I agree this price point for most is about $1000 (and it's what I recommend to people looking to buy a semi-serious starting bike). This gets you an OK frame and lower end components.

So me being Joe Punter I get my new bike, and either of two things happen. I'm all enuthiastic, I look after and care for the bike, wash it after every ride, take it for regular maintenace, and maybe learn to wrench some stuff my self. If my gears keep needing to be tuned, in all probability I'll learn to do that myself. I will replace the stuff when it needs it, and not know any different. Why? Because I'm not a retro-grouch who hangs out on Rotorburn whining about the good old days of 8spd/9spd, I'm riding my bike and having fun.

Your argument fails because in my 18 years of riding I have never come across someone that said " I used to cycle..... but I gave up because my gears kept needing to be tuned, and I was replacing the chain & cassette every 4 months." People accept maintenance as part of buying into something mechanical, and generally if a shop employee has any sort of head on them, they try and up sell a customer come replacement time.

The second case is, I buy my new bike and don't stick with it longer that 3 months and it ends up in the shed/ garage. Not because of the bike, but because I just don't have the motivation.

As for your personal attack on my experience - I work on around 2000 bikes per year, ranging from shitters, to mid range, to high end road and mtb. I'm in a good position to correlate bike type with user-maintenance, miles done, and subsequent wear. I also work on the retail end, selling bikes, parts and talking to riders about their experiences with their bikes. I've been racing and riding all sorts of bikes for over 10 years. It's foolish to attack people you don't know, no matter the forum. My Jack Russell will never learn that, but you might.
You do remember making this statement don't you?

10 speed on consumer mountain bikes will be a huge disaster, just as it has been on consumer road bikes.
I stand by calling you a d!ckhead for this, and even more so now that you have stated you work in shop. Besides your anicdotal evidence, do you have any actual proof that 10spd was somehow a disaster for roadbikes?
Have the manufacturers phased out 10spd? Are there internet protests at what a failure 10spd is, and how everyone should go back to 9spd? Are the pro's boycotting it?.....um no There is no evidence that 10spd is a disaster.
 

QZ13

Likes Dirt
WOW! And Anti_Trainer wants some of this eh? Good luck to him.

tomacropod, I agree with you here. Mr and Mrs Punter just want their bikes to roll and when they push that button, that bit goes click. When I talk to those customers about 2x10, they glaze over. If I was to tell them about 2x10's closer ratios...PFFFT!

I'll stick with one fast gear. I can ride that one slower or faster if I chose
 

Landon

Likes Dirt
2 x 10

I've been running a 28/42 XX BB30 crank for about 6 months now with an 11-32 cassette. Shifting between the 28 and 42 chainring is almost instant and super easy. But, is it 25% better than a shift between high end Shimano 32 and 44 rings? Not really.

I'm not totally happy with the large jump between the 28 and 42 rings. A couple of rear shifts are often required to balance things out. For the average X7 level bike, this isn't a really good option. I think Shimano are going in the right direction with the 24/32/42 cranks for most of the market. This will be a much better option for an OEM.

Do you really need 10 cogs on the rear? Yes and no.

Yes, it will offer an improved range or closer ratio.
Yes, it will shift slightly better. My XX tranny shifts a little bit smoother than a 9 speed setup. But it's only a very small improvement.
Yes, it will probably be a good thing for the repair industry with more frequent rear derailleur tuning and cable replacement.
No, it won't be a good thing for the repair industry that will have to carry a completely new line of stock for repairs.
No, it's not a good thing for X7 level bikes that are generally abused.
No, the chain probably won't last as long and may be more prone to twisting by thoughtless shifting.

The 10sp SRAM powerlock links can be removed quite easily with a pair of pliers and a bit of skill. Yes, they're a tighter fit than a 9sp Powerlink. I've removed and reinstalled the same powerlock many times on my own bike and it still works perfectly.

For me, 10 speed is a good thing. Time will tell if it will be a good option for the general MTB market.
 
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