Rival vs 105 groupset options

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Already had to bump up to XL knee pads, and getting over my thighs is now the deciding role in pant buying.

Need to get some spinning/cardio back into my life.
 

Oddjob

Wheel size expert
Hope caliper is orange and has all the pots, what else do you need to know?! I didn't know it existed until yesterday, now its the glorious centrepiece of this upgrade :D

I couldn't see the R7020 levers on Merlin - Germans have them as a set though. They are the new lower profile ones, may as well go sleek.

I'm still open to putting an XT derailluer on, but I thought it had to be 11 spd to match the shifters. If I put a 10spd on an 11spd cassette, where do I lose out? At the smallest end? And will there be 11 clicks for 10 changes? And do I need to get the Tanpan to increase cable pull?
The Hope calipers might not be mineral oil compatible so check. You might also need an aftermarket brakeline with universal fittings like Uberbike.

Shimano 11 speed road and mtb have different cable pull for the rd. But 11 speed road and 10 speed mtb have the same cable pull. So you can use the 10 speed XT rd (with goatlink) with an 11 speed 11-46 mtb cassette on a 10 speed hub. This setup does require an inline barrel adjuster, but they are cheap and work fine. Confused yet?

You're essentially paying double for the r7020. Merlin has the rs685 for $243 https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-st-rs685-hydraulic-disc-brake-stis-br-rs785-disc-brakes-post-mount-75654.html They have the rs785 di2 for $342.

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droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The Hope calipers might not be mineral oil compatible so check. You might also need an aftermarket brakeline with universal fittings like Uberbike.

Shimano 11 speed road and mtb have different cable pull for the rd. But 11 speed road and 10 speed mtb have the same cable pull. So you can use the 10 speed XT rd (with goatlink) with an 11 speed 11-46 mtb cassette on a 10 speed hub. This setup does require an inline barrel adjuster, but they are cheap and work fine. Confused yet?

You're essentially paying double for the r7020. Merlin has the rs685 for $243 https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-st-rs685-hydraulic-disc-brake-stis-br-rs785-disc-brakes-post-mount-75654.html They have the rs785 di2 for $342.

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Can get the Hope in Shimano specific (mineral oil), and in postmount / flatmount versions.

I still need to get my head around the XT 10 spd - even though its only specc'd up to 36t, it can go further with the goatlink?

The levers from the Germans are a set, including hoses. Its ~$100 more expensive when you add in the Hope calipers, over the rs685 set from Merlin (single ones look sold out - so its $532) (by my quick reckoning)

I'll check more tonight though
 

Oddjob

Wheel size expert
Can get the Hope in Shimano specific (mineral oil), and in postmount / flatmount versions.

I still need to get my head around the XT 10 spd - even though its only specc'd up to 36t, it can go further with the goatlink?

The levers from the Germans are a set, including hoses. Its ~$100 more expensive when you add in the Hope calipers, over the rs685 set from Merlin (single ones look sold out - so its $532) (by my quick reckoning)

I'll check more tonight though
XT 10 speed will go up to 46 with an 11 speed goatlink.

Right you are. Its the rs785 di2 being sold as a pair. Which is a screaming deal.

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RichJS

Likes Dirt
Shimano 11 speed road and mtb have different cable pull for the rd. .. This setup does require an inline barrel adjuster, but they are cheap and work fine.
Tanpan Sh11 cable pull converter is made with a barrel adjuster as part of it, so no inline adjuster required with road levers and mtb rear mech. Needing a barrel adjuster for a road front derailleur is pretty standard.

I saw something suggesting an R7000 medium cage rear worked with a 42t max cassette without any modifications, despite shimano saying 34t is the maximum. I can't seem to find it again.. I am supposed to ride my road bike with a medium R7000 rear up some steep hills this weekend, so might have to try the 11-42 I have here.
 

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
From some reading on gravel forums the RX derailleur also works fine with 11-40t XT etc cassettes too, even though not rated for them.
 

The Duckmeister

Eats Squid
Shimano 11 speed road and mtb have different cable pull for the rd. But 11 speed road and 10 speed mtb have the same cable pull. So you can use the 10 speed XT rd
Incorrect; you're getting mixed up with SRAM. Shimano road 10-sp, MTB 10-sp, road 11-sp. and MTB 11-sp. all use different pull ratios. 1.7:1 for road 10 & below, with the notable exception of 4700-series Tiagra, which shares its architecture with road 11-sp, + 9-sp & below MTB, road 11-sp + 4700 Tiagra use a 1.4:1 ratio, MTB 10-sp. is 1.2:1, while MTB 11-sp. is 1.1:1.

SRAM on the other hand use 1.3:1 for all road + 10-sp. MTB, and 1.1:1 for MTB 11, 9 & 8-sp.
 

Oddjob

Wheel size expert
Incorrect; you're getting mixed up with SRAM. Shimano road 10-sp, MTB 10-sp, road 11-sp. and MTB 11-sp. all use different pull ratios. 1.7:1 for road 10 & below, with the notable exception of 4700-series Tiagra, which shares its architecture with road 11-sp, + 9-sp & below MTB, road 11-sp + 4700 Tiagra use a 1.4:1 ratio, MTB 10-sp. is 1.2:1, while MTB 11-sp. is 1.1:1.

SRAM on the other hand use 1.3:1 for all road + 10-sp. MTB, and 1.1:1 for MTB 11, 9 & 8-sp.
But by a nifty coincidence Shimano 11 speed road works perfectly with 10 speed mtb on an 11 speed cassette. So same same, but different.

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The Duckmeister

Eats Squid
Which is weird, because by my rudimentary calculations, all the numbers say it isn't possible; the derailleur movement should be too short.

There isn't really anything to be gained though; although the official maximum sprocket capacities are listed as 34T for the newest-generation road 11-sp. and 36T for MTB 10-sp (except M6000 Deore, which is officially 42T), both have the tolerance to be pushed beyond that. 40T is realistically the most a MTB 10-sp. (except M6000) will handle, 42T gets very rough without a Goatlink. I've heard of R7000/8000/RX800 also being pushed acceptably to 40T, but haven't played around that far myself yet to see how nicely it plays. If a 2x is still desired, I wouldn't push a road derailleur beyond 36T big sprocket, because you need to allow for the front ring difference.

Back to the OP's original question..... SRAM may or may not have got over the design flaw that resulted in shift paddles falling off.... Shimano levers at least stay attached. SRAM's road hydro levers are bloody uncomfortable when you're up on the hoods; the reservoir bodies have really squared-off edges that dig viciously into the crook of your thumb. It's a real let-down because their mechanical brake versions are probably the most comfortable of the lot. 1x might look tidier, but SRAM pushed it because they could never get their front shifting to work..... 2x will give you as much, if not more total range, and with a moderate-sized cassette, better progression through the mid-range gears.

Brakes: There is no such thing as an adaptor that allows flat-mount calipers calipers to post-mount or IS-mount frames/forks. As per an earlier post, there are adaptors to allow post-mount calipers to fit to flat-mount frames/forks, but probably not to fit IS-mount calipers, because I don't think anyone even makes them anymore....... ALL Shimano hydro levers and calipers are interchangeable; although most road systems now come with flat-mount calipers, the first-generation R785 post-mount were nothing more than reprinted M785/M675 XT/SLX calipers. The RS785 revision moved the hose connection and bleed port for more foot clearance, but kept the same internals, and were cross-matched with the RS805/505/405 calipers on all road hydro levers.

On the other hand, SRAM did (or at least claim to) alter the master:slave cylinder ratios between their MTB and road hydro brakes in order to improve the modulation on the road models. You could probably switch over to Level calipers, but I don't know what effect, if any, that would have on brake performance.
 

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Thanks for all that info @The Duckmeister! Clarified some of what I was wondering about. I took the plunge on the RX800 and an XT 11-40t cassette last night, paired with a 40t chainring. Ordered the new 105 levers too. It could have been selected to be more efficient, but I’m not out to get KOMs or sprint along the flats. Only concern is climbing really steep stuff, but we’ll see how that goes.

Always have the option of going to 2x if I find it too restrictive, but I really am a sucker for the neatness of no FD.

The Wolftooth site has a bit of info that I found helpful too https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/pages/1x-gravel-setup
 

The Duckmeister

Eats Squid
Oh yeah, and as far as hub/cassette compatibility, Shimano tend to not (or at least poorly) recognise any compatibility between road & MTB, or the details are lost in translation..... But basically all 11-sp. cassettes with a big sprocket of 32T or smaller need a dedicated 11-sp. freewheel body, which is 1.85mm longer than a "regular" 8/9/10-sp. body. The 11-34 HG 700 & HG800 "non-series" but essentially 105 & Ultegra respectively, and all MTB 11-sp. cassettes that use an 11T top gear are designed to fit on a 8/9/10-sp. hub..... Clear as mud? Fortunately, when pretty much any other hub manufacturer states "11-sp. compatible", they mean road 11-sp. with the longer body, and will include the necessary spacer to allow fitting anything else that doesn't need a XD driver.
 

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Ok well that might present some fun then - ordered an 11 spd MTB cassette for an 11 spd road hub...
 

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
All this roadie upgrading is a bad influence. Have ordered a pair of the Deore 4 pots, will see how they play with Ultegra brifters :)
Nice, my Hope ones are delayed (took a chance on the 2-7 days stock level and lost). Not getting parts for a few weeks now...

Apparently I've got a 10spd road hub, not 11 as thought (as on current model), so the 11spd XT cassette will be sweet.
 

droenn

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Possibly, not sure if bikecomponents will group or split the order now.. will try and check tonight. Cheers
 
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