Running as DH cross-training?

[Staunch]

I've been considering starting to run again as cross training for DH although I'm not sure exactly what I should be doing/if it's even worth doing in addition to training on the bike.

Would it be better to just do the usual 5km constant jog or instead do intervals of 1km or so seeing as that's roughly the time it takes to complete a DH run?
Should I just leave the aerobic training to the bike and do hill/stair/200m sprints on foot for anaerobic training? Should I just keep doing both on the bike?
For XC rides and other long aerobic exercises I don't have a problem, I only want to improve for DH so I can get to the end of a run and still go almost as hard as I did at the top.

Also, I already do strength stuff such as squats/deads/bp/etc 3 times a week if that makes any difference.

 

[Ivan]

IMO constant pace jogging wouldn't help with race fitness.

20m sprints between obstacles/strength excercises would be more beneficial.

If you know of an obstacle course nearby, that would be perfect.

 

[driftking]

its hard i would say given dh is more anaerobic sport I would be doing sprints on the bike to simulate as close as possible to the muscles used in DH, aerobic fitness should be done on the bike but no harm in mixing it up with some running.
Aerobic training for dh is to build that bigger base and is focused mainly on the heart and lungs and improving its efficiency at using oxygen, for road riders It is more important on the bike to really work those legs endurance, as running does work the legs and it works other areas and mixes up training id say its fine for aerobic.

Personally aerobic will be bike/running
anaerobic stick to the bike.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Running has a lot to offer DH - increasing Vo2 will greatly help race performance but also reduce general fatigue from doing multiple practice runs. Do a mix of both - 5km runs and some interval/hill work. If you are of average fitness the benefits would be great, if your are already very fit the benefits will be minor.

DH is primarily an aerobic activity - there isn't a world class DH athlete who does not have a elite level Vo2. Anything beyond 30 seconds in duration becomes dominate on the aerobic system.

 

[Staunch]

Running has a lot to offer DH - increasing Vo2 will greatly help race performance but also reduce general fatigue from doing multiple practice runs. Do a mix of both - 5km runs and some interval/hill work. If you are of average fitness the benefits would be great, if your are already very fit the benefits will be minor.

This is what I was thinking of more-so when I considered starting up again. I'm confident in my leg strength/endurance due to my other training but having a higher Vo2 max would certainly help stamina with everything else.

I'm guessing doing a interval work one week and then 5km the next would be alright considering 2/5 days a week are cardio and the other cardio day is riding? Or should I be doing both during the week to up my Vo2 max quicker and then go back to XC one day a week as I can perform better then?

 

[driftking]

Running has a lot to offer DH - increasing Vo2 will greatly help race performance but also reduce general fatigue from doing multiple practice runs. Do a mix of both - 5km runs and some interval/hill work. If you are of average fitness the benefits would be great, if your are already very fit the benefits will be minor.

DH is primarily an aerobic activity - there isn't a world class DH athlete who does not have a elite level Vo2. Anything beyond 30 seconds in duration becomes dominate on the aerobic system.

Its hard one, you are not pedaling constantly while you are still working very hard your legs and cardio get a minor break when your not pedaling, while rock gardens and physical work is still taking it out of you I find its still a mini rest compared to sprinting. There are small levels of rest in areas over a full run, Your not sprinting through a rock garden after all, dh is more directed to short sprints with minimal rest like the tabata sprint, it is highly anaerobic with a big base reliance on aerobic ability to support that anaerobic system.
You are working at 90-100% of your heart rate and pushing every ounce of energy out, aerobic cant support that solely.
I agree though at the base of it increasing V02 max will improve performance, further more i agree on the elite dh side of the highly trainer aerobic capacity and V02 max levels.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Its hard one, you are not pedaling constantly while you are still working very hard your legs and cardio get a minor break when your not pedaling, while rock gardens and physical work is still taking it out of you I find its still a mini rest compared to sprinting. There are small levels of rest in areas over a full run, Your not sprinting through a rock garden after all, dh is more directed to short sprints with minimal rest like the tabata sprint, it is highly anaerobic with a big base reliance on aerobic ability to support that anaerobic system.
You are working at 90-100% of your heart rate and pushing every ounce of energy out, aerobic cant support that solely.
I agree though at the base of it increasing V02 max will improve performance, further more i agree on the elite dh side of the highly trainer aerobic capacity and V02 max levels.

Yeah this is an interesting topic - with a complex answer.

Firstly back to the OP, yes running or any form of endurance training will help DH performance - but the less fit you are the more it helps - the more fit your are the more specific your training will need to be (more cycling / less running).

6 weeks of endurance training resulted in substantial improvements in multiple sprint cycling performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530982

Having a higher Vo2 will result in reduced fatigue and greater performance in repeated sprints - the aerobic system must replace ATP produced in an anaerobic state - higher vo2 more efficient and faster replenishment of ATP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149991

DH racing with a standard track length of 3-5 minutes results in the aerobic system dominating energy supply. A human cannot sprint flat out for this length of time - it's just not possible for the ATP and glycolytic systems to provide energy over this length of time. But the interesting thing about DH even if you are not sprinting, your legs aren't exactly getting a rest - semi squat position.

Graph shows the energy contribution with a 4 minute rest - if you shorten that rest the aerobic contribution sky rockets - typically DH has a series of short hard sprints with small rest periods of non maximal work - every short sprint requires a greater contribution of aerobic. If that rest was shortening to say 30 seconds aerobic would contribute 80+% of the energy requirements. Having worked with olympic sprint squads before (slave labour / junior role) you be surprised how much long duration work they do because it is most important factor.


overall the energy systems look something like this:

 

[driftking]

Yeah this is an interesting topic - with a complex answer.

Firstly back to the OP, yes running or any form of endurance training will help DH performance - but the less fit you are the more it helps - the more fit your are the more specific your training will need to be (more cycling / less running).

6 weeks of endurance training resulted in substantial improvements in multiple sprint cycling performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17530982

Having a higher Vo2 will result in reduced fatigue and greater performance in repeated sprints - the aerobic system must replace ATP produced in an anaerobic state - higher vo2 more efficient and faster replenishment of ATP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149991

DH racing with a standard track length of 3-5 minutes results in the aerobic system dominating energy supply. A human cannot sprint flat out for this length of time - it's just not possible for the ATP and glycolytic systems to provide energy over this length of time. But the interesting thing about DH even if you are not sprinting, your legs aren't exactly getting a rest - semi squat position.

Graph shows the energy contribution with a 4 minute rest - if you shorten that rest the aerobic contribution sky rockets - typically DH has a series of short hard sprints with small rest periods of non maximal work - every short sprint requires a greater contribution of aerobic. If that rest was shortening to say 30 seconds aerobic would contribute 80+% of the energy requirements. Having worked with olympic sprint squads before (slave labour / junior role) you be surprised how much long duration work they do because it is most important factor.
View attachment 252175

overall the energy systems look something like this:
View attachment 252174

Some good stuff there MWI.

I am curious if you have studies on the use of creatine for Dh type events and sprint events, given creating can slightly length the duration of effort and slightly improve recovery between sets or efforts It seems that it could be quite a big performance enhancer in these type of events.

I am currently on the wall with creatine, the long term evidence isnt very well documented and the amounts needed to saturate the muscles are pretty high on top of that you have weight increase from water retention and the increased need for more fluid. While I understand cycling the creatine is safe Im not convinced completely, although for performance im very curious.
And if it does increase performance say in controlled environments does the excessive weight than offset this in a practical really world test where you are carrying the weight over a distance.

 

[Staunch]

Wow, cheers for all that info MWI, pretty interesting and helped my decision a fair bit

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Some good stuff there MWI.

I am curious if you have studies on the use of creatine for Dh type events and sprint events, given creating can slightly length the duration of effort and slightly improve recovery between sets or efforts It seems that it could be quite a big performance enhancer in these type of events.

I am currently on the wall with creatine, the long term evidence isnt very well documented and the amounts needed to saturate the muscles are pretty high on top of that you have weight increase from water retention and the increased need for more fluid. While I understand cycling the creatine is safe Im not convinced completely, although for performance im very curious.
And if it does increase performance say in controlled environments does the excessive weight than offset this in a practical really world test where you are carrying the weight over a distance.

Corner a pleasant young lady at work doing a PhD on creatine on whether it actually increase muscle mass over a length of time - strangely there is no evidence to currently show that it does?? But she's read heavily into the research and said the evidence does not strongly support repeat sprint performance (running - mixed some studies say yes, more say no) so not quite the same as DH. In cycling studies pretty much the same, support is not that greater for either repeat sprint tasks - or any other parameter.

Personally, I was in one of her strength training studies (arms only) and I found repeat sprints up short hills on an undulating ride, I felt a lot stronger as if i could push a little harder for a little longer. Probably just a placebo effect of knowing that I was in the experimental group (I was blinded to what I was given - but sneakily worked it out).

I will never take it again I suffered some acute nasty side effects, long term health wise the jury is out as to whether or not it is safe - no current evidence to show that it is not. If it does work for performance (they typically use cycle ergo's) It is a good point you bring up - would weight / water retention would offset a small performance gain due to having to move a larger mass?

Wow, cheers for all that info MWI, pretty interesting and helped my decision a fair bit

No problems, just be aware that cross training has a greater benefit the less fit you are - so if you swinging a Vo2 of 60 or above benefits will be negligible and specific training around lactate thresholds would offer greater benefit. But if your 'average' fitness, running is only going to be a good thing. Swimming another great cross training method.

 

[downhill mofo]

running uses differnet muscle groups to riding dh
one of my mates runs marathons and rides dh
hes said many times that the fitness does not cross over well at all
the best type of cross training for dh is 'fartles' (speed) training on a road bike or a fluid trainer
at home
something like 1 min sprint 2 min recovery or even 1 and 1 will be very benitfitail

 

[jrewing]

running uses differnet muscle groups to riding dh
one of my mates runs marathons and rides dh
hes said many times that the fitness does not cross over well at all
the best type of cross training for dh is 'fartles' (speed) training on a road bike or a fluid trainer
at home
something like 1 min sprint 2 min recovery or even 1 and 1 will be very benitfitail

Mx riding and pump track. You might not come back to dh after mx though

 

[driftking]

running uses differnet muscle groups to riding dh
one of my mates runs marathons and rides dh
hes said many times that the fitness does not cross over well at all
the best type of cross training for dh is 'fartles' (speed) training on a road bike or a fluid trainer
at home
something like 1 min sprint 2 min recovery or even 1 and 1 will be very benitfitail

This can be a positive. Most during off season, it can be good to break the cycle to help work different muscles, cycling also under works the lower back and can cause weakness. running is good to mix it up and challenge the bodies aerobic system in a new way. Keep in mind marathon running and dh cycling are two very different energy pathways, if he was a sprinter he would see more cross over due to similar energy system development.

it is best to train, "as you race" but its not always a bad idea during off season to throw in something different to keep it fresh and help break plateaus.