moorey
call me Mia
Chewie dies? You monster!
Star Wars, the Force Awakens
- Thread starter Dozer
- Start date
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
I'm like pure dark lord...well maybe like 15%. Nowhere near as evil as Jar Jar Benedict Arnold Binks.
Beej1
Senior Member
I just read somewhere that there's only roughly a 1% negative reaction to the film on Twitter. I'm genuinely amazed at that figure. I thought it was very average overall, with more plot holes and inconsistencies than should appear in a film with soooo much time and energy afforded to it.
For reference, I am very fond of the OT, and pretend the prequels simply don't exist for the most part. Of the OT, I like Empire the most. It was better paced, no cute cuddly creatures, the biggest reveal for decades to come and a constant feeling of pressure ... pressure to evade the Galaxy's ultimate badarse (before Lucas made him a whingeing pussy in the prequels). Since, even though Stormtroopers were terrible shots, the Empire was still something to be feared. And in Empire, they strike back hard, taking the limb of one hero, and freezing another whole. Great stuff.
Not award-winning filmmaking, but the OT was groundbreaking stuff for its time. And the story was original.
So, .... why the fuck is Force Awakens almost the same plot as A New Hope? [major spoilers for A New Hope and Force Awakens follow] An important member of the rebellion puts vital information aboard a droid and abandons it on desert planet before being captured. The Empire begins a search for the droid. The desert planet is home to a young adult seemingly gifted with The Force, and the droid finds itself in their care. The ruthless droid hunt finds them being chased off the desert planet, teaming up with Han & Chewie in the Millennium Falcon, while the Empire give their super large spherical WMD a test run, slaughtering billions of innocent people in the process. Those aboard the Falcon evade capture, while the young Force-strong individual begins to learn more of their ability. The Falcon arrives at Rebellion HQ, then a neatly exploitable vulnerability with the super large spherical WMD is exposed, and a bunch of X-wings are sent in to attack, while the old wise character is taken out by the saber wielding dark lord. The ace X-wing pilot fires the kill-shot into the neatly exploitable vulnerability and the weapon explodes second before its ready to fire an annihilate the rebel base. Yay's all round. (Note to Empire/First Order Weapons R&D team: spherical WMD's with neatly exploitable vulnerabilities just ... don't ... work. That's 3 for 3 down the shitter for you guys)
OK ... there's inherent differences, but still ... that plot effectively covers both films.
The few (of many) things that bug me the most [more spoilers]
- The first 30-odd minutes was freaking awesome. How menacing was The First Order in that massacre? How awesome an intro to Ren and Phasma? And Finn ... the first time ever a Stormtrooper is actually given any character, and he does it so well. And the escape with Dameron ... the close up of the Tie Fighter, another first, and that closed quarters firefight in the hanger. Wow. I was so pumped.
Then it just fell apart. Ren takes off his helmet and the menace of the First Order evaporates with Adam Driver's wussy voice, with Hux's completely uninspiring Nazi-with-a-British-accent general, with Phasma's one-sucker-punch and she's down before giving up the force field without a hint of torture, and with giant Gollum filling in for the Emperor. There's just no menace, other than that first few scenes. And that great character-building of Finn, Rey and to some degree Dameron, is wasted with the woefully familiar plot.
- The shrinking universe of JJ Abrams. He did it with Star Trek, and he's done it with Force Awakens. In original Trek, and indeed original and prequel Star Wars, space was BIG. It took hours/days/weeks conveyed by whole scene changes to get between anywhere and anywhere at warp/lightspeed ... which is reflective of how space is. In the Trek reboot, Earth to Vulcan or Klingon space becomes a 5 minute trip. In Force Awakens, all the planets of the republic now seem to be in the same system ... and somehow close enough to wherever Han and crew were for them to see a Star killer blast in realtime. Plus, the map to Luke looks like it crosses a Galaxy, but Rey and Chewie cover the distance in a few chords of John Williams music score.
- The inconsistencies in general ... there's too many to list ... from how does a janitor Stormtrooper last longer than 5 seconds against someone a few decades into Dark Side Force 101 training? To how does Ren sense Solo is on the same planet as him, but doesn't sense him standing right behind him.
I wanted to love the film. It has plenty of awesome elements, but a heap of overwhelmingly bad ones.
For reference, I am very fond of the OT, and pretend the prequels simply don't exist for the most part. Of the OT, I like Empire the most. It was better paced, no cute cuddly creatures, the biggest reveal for decades to come and a constant feeling of pressure ... pressure to evade the Galaxy's ultimate badarse (before Lucas made him a whingeing pussy in the prequels). Since, even though Stormtroopers were terrible shots, the Empire was still something to be feared. And in Empire, they strike back hard, taking the limb of one hero, and freezing another whole. Great stuff.
Not award-winning filmmaking, but the OT was groundbreaking stuff for its time. And the story was original.
So, .... why the fuck is Force Awakens almost the same plot as A New Hope? [major spoilers for A New Hope and Force Awakens follow] An important member of the rebellion puts vital information aboard a droid and abandons it on desert planet before being captured. The Empire begins a search for the droid. The desert planet is home to a young adult seemingly gifted with The Force, and the droid finds itself in their care. The ruthless droid hunt finds them being chased off the desert planet, teaming up with Han & Chewie in the Millennium Falcon, while the Empire give their super large spherical WMD a test run, slaughtering billions of innocent people in the process. Those aboard the Falcon evade capture, while the young Force-strong individual begins to learn more of their ability. The Falcon arrives at Rebellion HQ, then a neatly exploitable vulnerability with the super large spherical WMD is exposed, and a bunch of X-wings are sent in to attack, while the old wise character is taken out by the saber wielding dark lord. The ace X-wing pilot fires the kill-shot into the neatly exploitable vulnerability and the weapon explodes second before its ready to fire an annihilate the rebel base. Yay's all round. (Note to Empire/First Order Weapons R&D team: spherical WMD's with neatly exploitable vulnerabilities just ... don't ... work. That's 3 for 3 down the shitter for you guys)
OK ... there's inherent differences, but still ... that plot effectively covers both films.
The few (of many) things that bug me the most [more spoilers]
- The first 30-odd minutes was freaking awesome. How menacing was The First Order in that massacre? How awesome an intro to Ren and Phasma? And Finn ... the first time ever a Stormtrooper is actually given any character, and he does it so well. And the escape with Dameron ... the close up of the Tie Fighter, another first, and that closed quarters firefight in the hanger. Wow. I was so pumped.
Then it just fell apart. Ren takes off his helmet and the menace of the First Order evaporates with Adam Driver's wussy voice, with Hux's completely uninspiring Nazi-with-a-British-accent general, with Phasma's one-sucker-punch and she's down before giving up the force field without a hint of torture, and with giant Gollum filling in for the Emperor. There's just no menace, other than that first few scenes. And that great character-building of Finn, Rey and to some degree Dameron, is wasted with the woefully familiar plot.
- The shrinking universe of JJ Abrams. He did it with Star Trek, and he's done it with Force Awakens. In original Trek, and indeed original and prequel Star Wars, space was BIG. It took hours/days/weeks conveyed by whole scene changes to get between anywhere and anywhere at warp/lightspeed ... which is reflective of how space is. In the Trek reboot, Earth to Vulcan or Klingon space becomes a 5 minute trip. In Force Awakens, all the planets of the republic now seem to be in the same system ... and somehow close enough to wherever Han and crew were for them to see a Star killer blast in realtime. Plus, the map to Luke looks like it crosses a Galaxy, but Rey and Chewie cover the distance in a few chords of John Williams music score.
- The inconsistencies in general ... there's too many to list ... from how does a janitor Stormtrooper last longer than 5 seconds against someone a few decades into Dark Side Force 101 training? To how does Ren sense Solo is on the same planet as him, but doesn't sense him standing right behind him.
I wanted to love the film. It has plenty of awesome elements, but a heap of overwhelmingly bad ones.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
I thought Phasma was a shit and unnecessary character build. She can fuck off out of the film after her first scene for all I care. Totally annoying.
Do you think-tank Hux was based On Prince Harry? Nazi inspired Britain red head?
Do you think-tank Hux was based On Prince Harry? Nazi inspired Britain red head?
foxpuppet
Eats Squid
Phasma couldn't keep Renley Baratheon safe either
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
With allotment other minor hat tipping to other star wars and pop culture icons that went ordering the film (my current favour being the x-wing pilot that looks like Jar Jar without ears that has o.75 minutes of screen time and dies), do you think they could have allowed Fin to stab her with the lightsaber through the gorget of her armour? I think that would have been a good way to rid us of an unnecessary character. The film was too cluttered in that way.
Beej1
Senior Member
But the potential was there. Mostly in appearance, I'll admit - tall chrome trooper is full of awesome. But she was poorly written from the get-go.
That actually made me chuckle. Honestly, I think he was just the next iteration of all the other commander types they'd used in the OT, only - for some reason - much, much more pathetic.
N.B. interesting trivia: apparently the Stormtrooper whom Rey attempts mind control on, then fails, then succeeds, is none other than Daniel Craig.
thecat
NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
After the steaming pile of shit that was the prequels I think most people are happy it didn't suck that much. It's a new hope 2.0. A little cheesier and more Disney, but hopefully there's a Empire and Return of the Jedi to follow.
Phantom menace ruined Star Wars for me. Force awakens gave it a bit of CPR and there are signs of life.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Pretty much they way most of my convos about it go.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
This was basicalyl the worst part of the movie. Vader took 3 movies to reveal his face and even that was at the end when he died. They should have just kept him out of it completely and been very subtle with who he was. Also Rey whooped him so badly in the first go - what's with that. Just makes the force seem like this rubbish that took dumb skywalker a few moons on Dagobah.
See above. Looks like he is a little bit of a piss weak force user. That and his whole 'fear of not being like darth vader'. Piece of crap that is. Make him a real badass. Make him angry because Luke chose someone else to be his main apprentice and then he killed the dude and went to dark side. I dunno, this whole weakness in his character (and his face) was a real sore point. basically the whole cinema was like ehhhhh when he did that.
Otherwise all good on my end. Disney is smart to play it safe with a similar plot to e4
ajay
^Once punched Jeff Kennett. Don't pick an e-fight
Yep, spot on.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Yes. And noooooooooooooooooo. Seriously, was that "noooooooooooooooooo" at the end of ep3 not one of the worst lines in cinematic history? Definately the lowest point for James Earl Jones.
I agree about the wuss factor of Ren. It was stupid. I didn't mind that he struggled with light-dark, but give him a real reason for being a hater. None of this "daddy didn't love me" shit. The dude is slaying people left right and centre...that needs much more. And he should he a menace! If this runs out as predictable as the rest of ep7 and he turns good ill be most let down. I'm hoping for ep9 to be an epic courtroom drama with Ren sent to the electric chair for genocide by a jury of 12. Luke Skywalker as key witness for the prosecution. Also first degree murder with Chewbacca as star witness. Let's see Ren use the Chewbacca defence on that one!
The way the force aspect played out was stupid. They shouldn't have revealed who it was until the end...that final fight scene. Keep the audience guessing is it Rey? Is it Fin? Then Fin steps up and just when you think it is him...bam! It's the girl. Even pull off the reveal with the reaching for the light saber part if you want. But she can't he good. That robs the force of its mystery and power. Have Ren a bit more injured from Chewie (in my version Chewie dies too, after everyone thinks he has killed Ren with pure wookie rage...this is where Rens helmet can come off if you really need to show that miserable sook face.) that way he isn't on top of his sabre game and the splitting earth chasm can be used too.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
99% agree on chewy, just not him dying. Unlike other characters, chewy can keep being played and no one notices he is different haha. Not sure if he is immune to force though. But wookie rage is definately a big one and fans would have loved that. Ren needs to at least lose one limb also. Maybe a leg to mix it up a bit. In my version chewy lets off a crapload of explosives, sprays Ren like a wookie on cocaine and then Ren stops him with the force. Chewy grabs a random piece of steel and slices the sucker. Platform splits and there are on opposite sides. The only problem with that is then he doesn't get to fight Rey which is nto a bad thing I think - that happened way too early. Even luke only managed a Xwing v tie fighter with Darth in E4.
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
I just heard that in ep8 Snoke's identity is revealed! It is uncle Owen!
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
How long can the wookie stay relevant with Han gone? Disney need to fuck off as much of the original trilogy asap. They have written Skywalker in as a key character to the whole story, so that is out. Leia can be kept as an exec manager easily enough. Han and Chewie though...they are the easy targets. Ford wanted Han to die in ep6, as did some key players in the production team. Given the closeness of Han and Chewie it wouldn't be to much of a leap for the wookie to have a suicidal rampage. Have the pair of them captured and front up to Ren. Solo can try his "I love you but can't say love" routine. Ren stabs him. Inner force battle of good-natured in that moment overcomes him. Wookie goes nuts and catches him off guard (rips arm off storm trooper and uses it as a club would be pretty funny), slams down troops and Ren cops brutal claw fist in chest/face or epic choke hold and Ren falls off sky bridge having already been thrashed (a bit of a repeat of mace windu and palpating...they love copying that shit anyway). Wookie cops a few laser blasts...fights on a bit longer...pushes detonator. I'm thinking like 20-30 dead storm troopers before blast. Something to justify the long running claim of wookies being bad arse and strong.
Rey and Fin run through snow and surprise! Bloody bashed and charred up Ren appears...and he is a bit pissed. Bleeding and limping makes him easier to fight.
MARKL
Eats Squid
I agree the force came too easy to Rey and Ren's menace at this stage is inconsistent, sometimes he is a psychopath, other times he comes off more as a spoilt brat - kill a few people, have a tanty, kill a few more - he is clearly not as settled in his role as Darth was at the beginning of A New Hope. What I really liked though (and this could just be me) but the movie covered the key plot lines of not just New Hope but also Empire and Jedi all the way through to killing dad. Hopefully this gives them freedom to take the 8 & 9 in new directions as they have dealt with the links to the past, erased memories of the prequels and set the direction for the new movies all in this one film.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
Haha, you definately topped me. I'd like to see a crazy wookie rip off storm tropper limb - although storm troopers almost certainly never show that much sign of damage. They usually fall or have little laser burns. Fins friend or whatever is actually an exception.
Claw to the face is an excellent idea though. Rens face just pisses me off. A long way away from the pale sickly face of darth, palpatine and snooky.
But I'm on edge about chewy dying. You area horrible person to suggest such a thing!
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Well it's a marvellous night for a moondance...double post. Oops.
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pink poodle
気が狂っている男
"droids don't rip people's arms out of their sockets."
Claw to face would be a beautiful juxtaposition to Han's final caress...Chewie practically throwing his corpse out of the way to get revenge, so blinded with rage! You know...giving us the good.vengeful feelings a Jedi never can. Good giysbshould get mad sometimes.
Ren's face will be wetting emo nerd hipster panties across the galaxy for along time to come.
I didn't mind the idea that Ren is struggling and not fully component in the force. But that wasn't kept consistent. If he is still learning and not 100% dark, why does henhave so much influence and power in the system? How did he kill of the entire Jedi school but not get undone by Skywalker? How is he the master of a.group of dark knights? Why does Snoke trust him so much? Why is Snoke so surprised each time Rey bests him? If he is a dangerous rookie...cool, but let's have that consistently portrayed. I'd would have loved for a scene where after being out done by Rey and fucking up we we're reminded that he is a noobs. A scene where he fronts Snoke and get disciplined...a reminder of the power of the darkside like Skywalker had at the end of ep6. Something he comes back from only more eager to live up to darth vader.
Calvin27
Eats Squid
I think that is the point of killing Solo. I expect in the next episode he'd have darkend a lot more and become established completely. But yeah a clw to his face would have completed the picture of a dark character, that and a lost limb. All good jedi/siths or whatever have lost limbs.