Terrorism: Paris, Syria, Turkey, Belgium, Florida......

Quite possible we will see army-on-army conflict in this.

Sounds like it's a Gulenist movement and the whole army will not support them.
 
Skydome said:
I guess the problem is we don't know what their private thought process is. They could well be sympathetic to the actions and goals of extremist but don't publicly support it for obvious reasons.

They might just simply be secretly in agreement but not doing anything because they have other things to do in life or they are fearful of getting caught.
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They might also not support extreme Islam and not want any part of it. I don't think a default position of assuming all Muslims support extreme views is a reasonable starting point. It's just like saying that all Christians support the pope and his views on contraception and support for kiddy fiddlers. Of course they don't, Christianity is hugely diverse and people have individual and unique positions, Muslims are no different. Huge amount of variance and unique positions across over a billion people.

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but it seems more often than not when there's a terrorist attack it seems to be Islam at the center.
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At the moment you would be right. 30 years back it was Marxists and Maoists that were behind global networks of terror. 20 years before that you could say that anti-colonialists were at the centre with other secessionists/freedom fighters like the IRA, Eta, ANC, etc.

Again, be careful not to assume that a small slice of a huge population represents everyone. Not all Catholics are kiddy fiddlers, not all MTBers are environmental vandals, not all Asians are good at math and not all forum users are no-life gamers. It never works to generalise across large groups of people because individuality is a fundamental aspect of being human.

And Johhny you are right, I could have worded that one better haha. Bush and John did throw the world into more chaos than in it needed to be in, I think if we didn't get involved in the middle east there wouldn't be as much skepticism/fear towards Islam as there is now, as I believe the wars in the middle east has helped to foster more extremism
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I agree with the main point you're making there.
 
I understand what you're saying.

Just can't help but to feel somewhat prudent when taking muslims in, especially in the current climate.

But as said, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in my initial thoughts.
 
johnny said:
We'd have industrial scale confrontation similar to the Cold War. And we have nothing even similar to that, so you'd expect that most of the Muslims couldn't give a fuck about killing us, they'd be more likely focused on getting a job, eating food, getting rich, driving nice cars, getting laid, having kids, bringing up a family and buying a big TV - just the same as us.
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Yes the migrant muslim population in western countires are looking for a better life for their themselves and their families. These are clearly muslim's on the moderate side similar to the average christian, jew etc. They believe but don't follow religion to the letter of the law, so to speak.
But these are western countries we are talking about.. Different kettle of fish altogether in ME and elesewhere. There are a lot of people who were dealt a shit hand in life and religion plays a huge part in how they cope.. Not for a second saying that makes them all terrorists, it just means that there is a bigger pot for IS to add their radicial ingredients.
 
Kerplunk said:
Not for a second saying that makes them all terrorists, it just means that there is a bigger pot for IS to add their radicial ingredients.
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Yep, which is why social cohesion is so important and right wing extremism actually helps IS/AQ rather than contains them.

You can't stop every crazy but you can make extremism a less attractive choice as compared to security and prosperity.
 
johnny said:
Quite possible we will see army-on-army conflict in this.

Sounds like it's a Gulenist movement and the whole army will not support them.
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The statement by the military doesn't sound Gulenist as they were talking about Secularism. Erdogan treats Gulen like a boogyman so it's probably BS that they are involved.
 
It never works to generalise across large groups of people because individuality is a fundamental aspect of being human.

I totally agree, but when one 'religious' group is responsible for such carnage on innocent people and children for
a long time you can't blame people to start to hate and despise....
 
Hellyeah said:
It never works to generalise across large groups of people because individuality is a fundamental aspect of being human.

I totally agree, but when one 'religious' group is responsible for such carnage on innocent people and children for
a long time you can't blame people to start to hate and despise....
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I reckon i can though. Firstly, because it's a dumb reaction - it's not a "religious" group that is doing it, it's a group of people from within a religious group. We don't hate on every Catholic because a few thousand priests sexually tortured children. So why would you hate a billion Muslims because of a few thousand twisted fuckwits who murder? Secondly, because blaming every Muslim will only threaten our security so much more. Why would you want that?

If it helps, a close family friend was on one of the aircraft on 9/11, the one that went down in Pennsylvania. His name was Mark Bingham and he was one of the guys that stormed the cockpit. I've had friends that have lost limbs in Afghanistan and that have severe PTSD from Iraq (seeing dead kids and whatnot). I can understand how easy it is to hate and vilify. However, I also understand how pointless that response is and how it would only increase and extend my grief more than needed. So why do it? Better to work at ways to defeat the arseholes than attack innocents the same way my innocent friends were attacked.
 
Hellyeah said:
It never works to generalise across large groups of people because individuality is a fundamental aspect of being human.

I totally agree, but when one 'religious' group is responsible for such carnage on innocent people and children for
a long time you can't blame people to start to hate and despise....
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I do get what you're saying though, and it is, I expect, unfortunately inevitable. Which is a pity as its both irrational and a huge strategic faiure.
 
Hellyeah said:
I totally agree, but when one 'religious' group is responsible for such carnage on innocent people and children for
a long time you can't blame people to start to hate and despise....
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Who? Christians?

I know you don't mean Christians, but as johnny has pointed out what you said about Muslims could be turned back at Christians (and some western democracies).

How many people have been killed by Muslim extremists?

Compare it 100s of thousands of innocent people killed in Iraq. Think about that for a minute. Take that into account then maybe the Muslims are more entitled to use that statement than you are? It won't help anyone who's been killed or had there life destroyed from either side. We need to think really hard before saying these kinds of things and get informed.

I have a couple of mates who think the same way as you. Can't convince them otherwise. Not sure what set them down this path. I can only guess selective view of history and not getting their news from a wide range of sources. That and not knowing any Muslims (fear of the unknown).
 
Many also killed in the name of secularity, let's not lose perspective. A belief system is only as violent as those practising it.
 
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wesdadude said:
Many also killed in the name of secularity, let's not lose perspective. A belief system is only as violent as those practising it.
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...and even then, is that the belief system that is violent? Or still just the actions of individuals who happen to claim a certain faith?
 
pink poodle said:
...and even then, is that the belief system that is violent? Or still just the actions of individuals who happen to claim a certain faith?
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My point. Although, I can't confidently claim either way without properly reading and understanding the Quran.
 
johnny said:
RIP Qandeel Baloch.

Infuriating.
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Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

I accept that demonising Islam is no strategic solution, but to intellectualise about the (almost endemic) violence requires leaving all doors open.

It's a religion from another time (this it has in common with most others), a time of slavery, abuse, no valuing of women apart from being objects of ownership to men. Anyone can come up with hundreds of grotesquely violent unforgiving quotes from the Quran that border on sadism, as they can with the Old Testament .

All this wouldn't matter if it were seen in its historical context, ie as different and less enlightened than today. Yet, that is not what we see, because fundamentally Islam is a fundamentalist religion and it sees the past as enlightened and the Quran as without error.

It's so easy to say that xyz sadistic action is just a regional/cultural/tribal thing, it's even easier to see the commonality that goes across those different cultural/tribal groups - and it ain't a love of all fellow human beings.
 
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