Thinking of buying some acreage next year for my own trails. Thoughts?

mikedh

Likes Bikes
Hopefully this isn't a dumb conversation. As the title says, I think that in order for me to ride trails that I want to ride, I'm going to need a blank canvas. I learned to ride on Vancouver's North Shore and just haven't found anything in the Sydney area that can scratch that technical itch that's legal and I can ride alone. I need technical descents, drops and skinnies (essentially, I want my own miniature version of 'Clown Shoes'). I used to be part of a trail building co-op back home some years back and know exactly what I want to ride. Since my ideas for trail absolutely do not conform to IMBA guidelines, it's probably best I find my own place to build.

Well, my wife seems open to the idea of buying some acreage a few hours outside of Sydney as long as we can use it for camping. I reckon it'd need to be a minimum of 25000 sq meters minimum on a moderate or greater gradient with a portion that could be developed (not for us but for resale value, otherwise the missus won't see it as an investment).

Any thoughts, ideas, perspectives, criticisms or skepticisms would be appreciated. Co-workers that have seen youtube clips of what I'm thinking of building have brought up that if I use timber to build trail it will most likely A. burn and B. not be approved by council.

Cheers.
 

bikesarefun

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Hopefully this isn't a dumb conversation. As the title says, I think that in order for me to ride trails that I want to ride, I'm going to need a blank canvas. I learned to ride on Vancouver's North Shore and just haven't found anything in the Sydney area that can scratch that technical itch that's legal and I can ride alone. I need technical descents, drops and skinnies (essentially, I want my own miniature version of 'Clown Shoes'). I used to be part of a trail building co-op back home some years back and know exactly what I want to ride. Since my ideas for trail absolutely do not conform to IMBA guidelines, it's probably best I find my own place to build.

Well, my wife seems open to the idea of buying some acreage a few hours outside of Sydney as long as we can use it for camping. I reckon it'd need to be a minimum of 25000 sq meters minimum on a moderate or greater gradient with a portion that could be developed (not for us but for resale value, otherwise the missus won't see it as an investment).

Any thoughts, ideas, perspectives, criticisms or skepticisms would be appreciated. Co-workers that have seen youtube clips of what I'm thinking of building have brought up that if I use timber to build trail it will most likely A. burn and B. not be approved by council.

Cheers.

It's a sweet idea, and I'll end up doing the same one day. Nothing beats having your own private trails.

Council could be your big issue. Check out this thread, their experiences might give you some insights. But I feel as though other councils could be less retarded. Check the zoning before you buy; that might help.
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
Check out land tax arse rapage first, especially if you own other property.

http://www.osr.nsw.gov.au/taxes/land/calculator/

What is land tax?

Land tax is a tax levied on the owners of land in NSW as at midnight on 31 December of each year. In general, your principal place of residence (your home) or land used for primary production (a farm) is exempt from land tax. You may be liable for land tax if you own or part-own:

vacant land, including vacant rural land
land where a house, residential unit or flat has been built
a holiday home
investment properties
company title units
residential, commercial or industrial units, including car spaces
commercial properties, including factories, shops and warehouses
land leased from state or local government.


Maybe you could whack some beef on it.
 

Browndog77

Likes Dirt
Try out Cobargo way?... Fair drive from Sydney but it is really good dirt and quite hilly. My Aunty lives there and every time I visit, I stare at the hills and imagine the trails that could be cut into it.

Good luck
 

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
It is a reasonable idea. The only downside that I can see (apart from land tax) is actually finding a piece of countryside that is within budget, accessible and gives you what you want. There are plenty of hidey holes on the Central Tablelands down Oberon/Kanangra way or the Upper Hunter and Goulbourn River around Sandy Hollow/Denman/Kandos but the biggest drama will be the price since your starting price for anything of size could be over two grand an acre. So you'll potentially need deep pockets.

However, the further you are prepared to go then the cheaper it will get...but of course the harder it will be to get there are stay there...

Building a trail network for private use probably won't require council approval...in fact, almost certainly won't require council approval.

How about this? Under 100K at Wellington http://www.ruralview.com.au/Real-Es...ngton/Property-Details-buy-rural-6004752.html (and mostly near vertical apparently) or this http://www.realestate.com.au/property-acreage+semi+rural-nsw-bathurst-106395335 (under 200K) or this http://www.realestate.com.au/property-acreage+semi+rural-nsw-gungal-111250691 (about 250K) or especially this http://www.realestate.com.au/property-acreage+semi+rural-nsw-bylong-112545471 (which I'd be thinking is well over the 300K mark)

Bear in mind that no matter what...you have to manage the land and that exercise has a great deal of implications that can get in the way of trail building and riding....
 
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0psi

Eats Squid
Not that bad an idea only real thing to keep in mind is liability. Once you get everything done and built I'd personally keep quiet about it. It's all good and well being the nice guy and letting others ride the awesome NS stuff but it only takes one tard to hurt himself and it all goes to shit. Even if you advertise it as private property some people will still ride it if they know it's there and even though they aren't meant to be there you can still get stung. Sad times we live in.

You can also rent out fields to sheep and cattle farmers for grazing. Isn't big money but it's better than a paddock sitting there doing nothing.

Only other thing I'd recommend is getting a property with some sort of stream through it. Apart from being great for swimming and kids to muck about in it solves the big issue of water on long trips. We once had a property with no access to fresh water (beach front so even a well would probably have been salty) and having enough water was always a pain. Any more than a long weekend and it was a pain making sure we had enough water. Even the shittiest looking creek water can be filtered and purified, makes extended trips much easier.
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
Not that bad an idea only real thing to keep in mind is liability. Once you get everything done and built I'd personally keep quiet about it. It's all good and well being the nice guy and letting others ride the awesome NS stuff but it only takes one tard to hurt himself and it all goes to shit. Even if you advertise it as private property some people will still ride it if they know it's there and even though they aren't meant to be there you can still get stung. Sad times we live in.

You can also rent out fields to sheep and cattle farmers for grazing. Isn't big money but it's better than a paddock sitting there doing nothing.

Only other thing I'd recommend is getting a property with some sort of stream through it. Apart from being great for swimming and kids to muck about in it solves the big issue of water on long trips. We once had a property with no access to fresh water (beach front so even a well would probably have been salty) and having enough water was always a pain. Any more than a long weekend and it was a pain making sure we had enough water. Even the shittiest looking creek water can be filtered and purified, makes extended trips much easier.
I agree with Craig regarding people hurting themeselves, you will have to be prepared for people riding it always, even when you dont want them to, garmin and strava will take care of that, no such thing as secret anymore, i know from experience here at the blue mountains, there is a private track at a christian centre that gets open a couple of times a year for everybody, but i see people sneaking in all the time, i asked one bloke one day and alerted him that it was private property and he replied that he couldnt give a stuff, he was going to ride it whether we liked it or not. You will have to be prepared for this if you go ahead and buy and build.
Sounds like a good idea to though!
 

s.dogg

Likes Dirt
So you are the one person that rides clown shoes?
When you buy the land just go to whis and bring clown shoes back with you? No one will notice its missing.

It is an amazing idea. But don't underestimate the time it will take to build quality trails. You would need to be up there every weekend for a long time building before getting on your bike. So the closer to Sydney the better. Make sure you use a good quality hardwood. (Half of clown shoes is closed and old school is gone due to rotten timber)
 

mikedh

Likes Bikes
Wow, thanks for the responses everyone. Some fantastic points.

Check the zoning before you buy; that might help
Good idea, thanks. In reference to the mtb park, I wouldn't really be building for anyone else but myself so I'm not sure I'd encounter the same concerns but as I start keeping an eye on real estate, I'm noticing that some land is not develop-able. I'll have to ensure the property I'm interested in allows for what I intend to do with it. I got a kick out of 'No, Steve' on that video. It's exactly what I'm looking for.

Check out land tax arse rapage first
I didn't think of this aspect and will have to look into it since it wouldn't be our residence. If it's something reasonable I suppose that's just an additional cost of the whole idea.

Try out Cobargo way?
It sounds great from your description, but that is one hell of a drive and I'm not at my best form when I'm behind a steering wheel. Still, it might be something to consider when I take affordability into account.

It is a reasonable idea. The only downside - you have to manage the land and that exercise has a great deal of implications that can get in the way of trail building and riding....
4.5 hours to Wellington from my house according to google maps is again, one hell of a drive. Still, at just over $1,000 an acre that's pretty tempting and I could do that right now. The other properties would probably require a bit more equity than what we currently have, but I've been idly watching steals of land come up on real estate websites from time to time for awhile now. In regards to managing the land, I'll have to look into the specifics. I may have been under the false assumption that vacant land wouldn't need more than an occasional scrub-cleaning. Thanks for bringing those up, I find myself considering how bad of a drive that'd be.

Even the shittiest looking creek water can be filtered and purified, makes extended trips much easier.
I really like your idea of having some sort of water on the property but this really narrows the selections down while possibly driving the price up. If I could find it, I'd jump all over a piece of land that fits my criteria, has a creek and is affordable right away.

I've been looking to do this myself - go halves with someone
I'd look at the links you've provided but I can't while I'm at work. We might not be competing for the same area if you're in Melbourne anyway. Good luck, I think it's the way to go.

only real thing to keep in mind is liability
I agree with Craig regarding people hurting themeselves - You will have to be prepared for this if you go ahead and buy and build.
So you are the one person that rides clown shoes?
So, guys, I should elaborate on why I brought up Clown Shoes and what this has to do with liability. I hate to bring up Canadian/Cascadia type trails as examples but it's what I know and love so thanks for bearing with that. As a few of you guys have pointed out, Clown Shoes is not popular or known as a fun trail at Whistler. It's actually more of a trail someone does once and claims they'll never go to the trouble again. To me, that's perfect. It's been mentioned that once the trail I build is complete and IF the location of it becomes known, I'll have people riding on it (along with the liability) whether I like it or not. The way I see it, I can reduce this possibility significantly if I build trail that is absolutely NOT what people want. The last few years of watching popular trails develop has led me to believe that most gravity riders want easy air, most xc riders want challenging climbs and most weekend warriors want little technical challenge.

The way I see my trail, it might not appeal to many riders. I want timber North Shore features 20 cm wide that go on for awhile and end in 2 meter or whatever drop offs with absolutely no ride-around. I want lengthy rock gardens on slopes greater than 45 degrees and smooth rock surfaces to ride down greater than 70 degrees, again with no options to ride around. I want rooty, rocky nasty turns, hairpins and kickers. I want filter after filter, drop after drop (preferably setup by a skinny or rock ledge). I want something that is completely unsuitable for a the masses and to be disliked by those skilled enough to ride it anyway. I want this trail to be difficult work, a battle that one can regularly win or lose. I want to be exhausted when the trail is finished even though there will be little to no climbing. I want to earn a beer after each turn. I may not get any of this stuff, but this is how I see it. Then I'll probably build another trail just like it. There's plenty of fast groomed stuff out there already, I want my trail(s) to be slow and excrutiatingly technical.

Any thoughts on this perspective? Who knows, there could be this huge group of gravity riders just dying to find a trail that rides exactly like the trail I'd like to build, just waiting for me to build it.

In regards to the liability (just in case little Johnny from the skatepark decides he's going to have a go anyway). Well, that's just part of the risk I suppose. I'll have to look into liability insurance costs. If they're not reasonable, it may dictate that the prospective land is more secluded.

Again, thanks for all the insight everyone, this is a pretty big purchase I'm considering with elements I wouldn't have thought of. I don't know if I'll get a green light from the missus on something like this in the future, so I'd better seize the opportunity.
 

Reubs

Likes Bikes and Dirt
You want to build a Jerry-Rig or a Flying Circus on top of a Sex Girl with large helpings of 5th Horseman and Hangman thrown in. When you build this promised land, please invite me!
 

mikedh

Likes Bikes
Fifth Horseman. Mannn, that brings back some memories. I hated that trail so much when I first started going to Cypress, it was so ungodly difficult. Turns out that Cypress developed skills I didn't realize I was developing, I was just focusing on surviving it while hating it. One day I realized how much fun I was having and that was that.

I remember how sad I felt when friends told me Family Guy had been destroyed for development, but by that time I had already moved to Sydney.
 

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
With you on the trail design. Whilst I freely admit I'm not to that standard, if it is yours then build it the way you want. I sure as hell would. Bear in mind though that the Great Dividing Range (especially the western side) is nothing like Canada...though there are some hell spots (I remember Winburndale in the 80's with a mixture of alarm and not a little glee)

You need not go as far as Wellington given that there are options available near Bathurst but then there's potential options everywhere really...it's all about the compromise. Make a list of the criteria that you must have and the stuff you'd like to have.

I suggest that you use the internet only to generate a long list of potential properties from which you get a short list of potential areas. Then go and have a squiz - even a sneaky ride or three if only on the fire trails to get a feel for the terrain and its potential to give you what you want.

Once you have that short list...introduce yourself to the local estate agent who will have far more on the books than he/she/it has in the marketplace. Give them your list, show them some pics and videos of what you are trying to do, get them inspired...give them the impression that you'd be a great long term client (even if you won't be). And get them do the heavy lifting of finding something that sort of fits your criteria. And then the fun really starts...

Personally, I'd love to try owning some hills between Goolgowi and Grenfell (like the Cococoparra Range or around Rankin Springs) because those views and rocks are impressive...but they are just too far away and the properties are too massive. Oh well.
 

poita

Likes Dirt
Cool idea, have had a similar idea myself but lack the funds. Thought I'd write a bit of a list for you, my 200 cents...

Being a health professional, I worry about your dream of super techy trails ridden by yourself on private property. Not trying to be the fun police, hell I would do the same, but make sure you have an ironclad emergency plan. Busting yourself up 2 hours drive from the nearest (shit) hospital is dangerous at the best of times. Imagine how much worse it gets when you're on a barely distinguishable trail in the middle of your block of land that noone really knows how to get to, or how to get to you. With a well thought out plan, that your wife and/or friends know about, you get to ride and enjoy knowing you did everything you could if something does happen. More than happy to be consulted, I'm no expert, but I know a few useful things.

Land tax. That could totally destroy the whole plan. Make sure you suss it out properly before going ahead.

As everyone has said, security/others riding your trail. Keep an open mind too, it could be dirt bikes or hunters or quad bikes. I know of a few properties where the owners just can't keep people off, and they don't even have awesome MTB trails on them! Maintaining kilometers of fencing and locks on gates (they will get cut) seriously eats into ride time.

As for places, I would personally look on the south coast/Canberra region. Still 4 hours drive from Sydney, but go and have a look. You won't be disappointed!
 

schwing

Likes Dirt
The way I see my trail, it might not appeal to many riders. I want timber North Shore features 20 cm wide that go on for awhile and end in 2 meter or whatever drop offs with absolutely no ride-around. I want lengthy rock gardens on slopes greater than 45 degrees and smooth rock surfaces to ride down greater than 70 degrees, again with no options to ride around. I want rooty, rocky nasty turns, hairpins and kickers. I want filter after filter, drop after drop (preferably setup by a skinny or rock ledge). I want something that is completely unsuitable for a the masses and to be disliked by those skilled enough to ride it anyway. I want this trail to be difficult work, a battle that one can regularly win or lose. I want to be exhausted when the trail is finished even though there will be little to no climbing. I want to earn a beer after each turn. I may not get any of this stuff, but this is how I see it. Then I'll probably build another trail just like it. There's plenty of fast groomed stuff out there already, I want my trail(s) to be slow and excrutiatingly technical.

Any thoughts on this perspective? Who knows, there could be this huge group of gravity riders just dying to find a trail that rides exactly like the trail I'd like to build, just waiting for me to build it.

In regards to the liability (just in case little Johnny from the skatepark decides he's going to have a go anyway). Well, that's just part of the risk I suppose. I'll have to look into liability insurance costs. If they're not reasonable, it may dictate that the prospective land is more secluded.
I love the passion- and had thought of similar ideas myself - similar in terms of land, build trails etc - I was thinking of a more xc orientated camping experience for family guys.
but theres plenty of that to be had on public land.

The reason for my reply is to just flag the problem of safety.

You seem a more than capable rider, and no doubt have mates to ride with. I wonder if a remote property and extremely technical trails combined with a desire to push ones limits seem like a disaster waiting to happen. I guess you'd have to set your own boundaries and make the usual undertakings ( no pun intended) that you wouldnt ride or work alone, would always flag to someone where you are, and be prepared to wait a long time for
first aid or evac if needed.
Perhaps build a couple of helicopter pads as well
 

unitec

Likes Dirt
Great Idea

Like the idea however the logic of making your trail dangerous to keep people off it (the way a lawyer may look at it?) is flawed.
My experience has been that the more skills based the riding is the less likely riders are to blame the trail for injuries & as such unlikely to sue. As such your liability risk may not be bad as you think. (would you sue a trail owner?)
To be on the safe side though I would tend to either build all "natural" features or if you are to build out of wood build to some guidelines. (features can be big without being dangerous)
 

Knuckles

Lives under a bridge
Like the idea however the logic of making your trail dangerous to keep people off it (the way a lawyer may look at it?) is flawed.
My experience has been that the more skills based the riding is the less likely riders are to blame the trail for injuries & as such unlikely to sue. As such your liability risk may not be bad as you think. (would you sue a trail owner?)
To be on the safe side though I would tend to either build all "natural" features or if you are to build out of wood build to some guidelines. (features can be big without being dangerous)
I think his point was to make it the way he likes it. The liability issues are just a regrettable biproduct of the puss society we find ourselves in.
 
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