Discussion in 'Off Topic Discussion' started by John U, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. johnny

    johnny I'll tells ya! Staff Member

    Trump makes a claim that he can go back on without incurring any actual cost. That's the epitome of not giving anything away.
  2. moorey

    moorey Peladophobic

    I doubt they’re any further away from that.......but at least there’ll be Trump buildings dotted around to deter him I guess.
    If there’s one thing I trust about Trump, it’s that he’s doing this for some personal gain 8B9F58EA-F297-4A23-9A65-3B0E6B6F150F.png
  3. born-again-biker

    born-again-biker Likes Bikes and Dirt

    Do you consider yourself a China apologist? (seriously... not a smartass question)
    I respect your views... but for me it's a little more black /white.... or good guys vs bad guys. That might seem simplistic, but I can't get past the aforementioned human rights, anti - democracy etc etc simply because it exists at all. Whether Australia is seen to be doing something about the issues you mentioned is secondary to me. A lot of it will be pomp, posturing and hot air anyway. 'Mentioning' Tianemen once a year is sooo big of us. Woop-de-doo daa. Australia is a diplomatic piss-ant. I mean we hosted that Chinese prick recently, yeah? How much of our taxes were spent hosting him? (ask moorey about where funding should go... I don't think he 'd say "improving China /Australia relations"... he'd say disadvantaged kids in our back yard)... tangent.
    And we hosted the Cambodian arsehole too. Both regimes are not nice to their people. If we had any nuts we would simply say you're not welcome here until you leave Tibet. Full stop.
    As far as I am concerned you either believe in democracy or you can get fucked. You either believe in basic human rights (as the basis for your approach /policy /behaviour etc) or you are fundamentally bad. Sorry, but I'm happy to be very 'grey' and flexible about many things... but not that stuff. Everytime we engage with China or Nth Korea at all, we are legitimising them.
    Every time we concede something to China & Nth Korea we are betraying the non - negotiable values we should insist on. They are winning the fight against what I consider good decent human rights /values /principles (like... don't steal other businesses patents and copyrights because that's wrong/amoral)

    The not-insignificant benefits to their populace you rightly mentioned are difficult for me to accept when they have come at the cost of more righteous principles and at the cost of our refineries, manufacturing, seafaring, education, sovereignty...
    If you work in an industry that has been adversly effected by the rise of China it is difficult to accept. I also understand some industries have benefited greatly. Congrats to them, I suppose.
    You explain to me some wholesome Chinese values and I'll stop 'lecturing'. When these 'celebrated' wealthy Chinese business classes buy Australian assets/businesses/infrastructure/ports/farms/properties I get pretty concerned. Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't see a warm intent to integrate & support? (More like manipulate, extract, influence & squeeze).
    If the rise of China was achieved with fair wages and conditions and they were democratic, then I would sing their praises. But I feel that their economic advantage was not exactly 'organic'. It was forced by the ruthless party thru zero tolerance of trade unions or bargaining. The Chinese are happy to have foreigners show them how to manufacture things better and gain better efficiencies and 'lend' them a design they can copy.... but we can't advise them how to look after their workers properly? They won't accept our advice when it comes to humanity?

    Japan & Sth Korea (both with so much at stake in all this) are already being ignored. Trump made a token effort to hear Japan's concerns last week...but Donald doesn't have the capacity to care about Japan or Sth Korea... or anyone really.

    I stand by what I said. KJ is gonna play Trump like a violin. Trump can't think the long game... he only thinks in short busts. KJ is a master of PR/propaganda and his long term goal will be acceptance/tolerance by a wider audience without conceding much.
    The nukes will still have the same effect/leverage either way. It's just that it's easier for KJ to get what he wants /needs if he is less isolated and more tolerated.

    Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk
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  4. hifiandmtb

    hifiandmtb Sphincter beanie

    Oh this is good:

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  5. Calvin27

    Calvin27 Likes Bikes and Dirt

    I rekon there is a little inside both Trump and Kim that makes them want to put their name in the history books. That's the optimist in me. However the comment on the long game is spot on. The west has been struggling with the long game for the better part of 3 decades now imo. Such is the beauty of volatile democracy.
  6. johnny

    johnny I'll tells ya! Staff Member

    Nope. I understand the difference between China and the Party and I don't damn a whole nation of 1.3 billion people because I don't like their government that they have no power to change.

    Their government is a disaster and they are really leading the region into a very dangerous place. Pushing the whole nation into a corner, destroying their economy and blocking their investment in our, otherwise open economy has zero chance of improving the situation for 1.3 billion people and it would make our lives worse. I also understand that when decisions on policy have to be made emotion isn't a luxury that you can indulge in. You have to make decisions within the constraints of reason and possibility and try not to make the situation worse.

    This kind of makes me some one not overly inclined to throw babies out with the bathwater.
  7. moorey

    moorey Peladophobic

    Forgive me if I missed it, but what did Trump get in return for announcing he’d give up joint military exercises with South Korea?
    The North has done everything to stop these for years, include threatening nukes against numerous countries, sinking ships etc?
    Oh, that’s right, Russia has been demanding an end to these for years as well.
    All that said, it was probably a brain fart. Nether South Korea or the US military seemingly knew anything about this off the cuff promise, and are still making plans for this years exercises.
  8. moorey

    moorey Peladophobic

    Does anyone remember the reaction of the Republicans when Obama said he’d be prepared to meet North Korea over the table? Was almost a public lynching.
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  9. johnny

    johnny I'll tells ya! Staff Member

    Neither side gave away anything. Kim made commitments do stuff that are not defined (in terms of ends, process, verification or anything close to meaningful) and that everyone expects him to break anyway. Trump stopped military exercises, which are something he can start up again with the stroke of a pen - easy to give away, easy to take back. Both sides are positioning themselves for a long negotiation and are putting things on the table that are cheap and meaningless that they can quickly reimplement as punishment for transgressions and to posture to domestic audiences. People want Trump to fail and they want him to look stupid because they detest him.

    Trump is a dickhead, Kim is a cunt but to think everything they do is dumb and evil instead of judging it for what it is means you miss the play.
  10. pink poodle

    pink poodle Clinically Inane

    Anyone looked up Rodman's potcoin yet?
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  11. moorey

    moorey Peladophobic

    I get what you’re saying. I just disagree that Trump has a plan outside of what looks good for the camera, what will benefit him financially, or what just popped in his head.
    What actual commitments did Kim make?
  12. Haakon

    Haakon Not happy, Jan.

    It is. They just don’t seem to realise it.

    Or more likely - it is and they know their voters will lap it up...
  13. johnny

    johnny I'll tells ya! Staff Member

    I think he has faith in himself that he is smarter than everyone and he can do this presidential gig better than anyone else and get a Nobel prize along the way. He's an egotist and a sales/conman in reality but I think he truly believes that he is super. I don't think this is all about finaicial gain, it's about his ego and and just being a wanker in general. I believe he has a basic idea of how negotiation works, he's been involved in very many of them. I don't necessarily believe that he is good at them but I also believe that his team around him - or he informed his close team- that he would put the exercises on the table, simply because it's a meaningless concession that can be removed without any cost - in that it just returns them to the status quo.

    There's no doubt that his mouth runs. He's also some one that has no problem completely contradicting himeslf in the same sentence and then outright denying he ever said that. But he uses that as a strength and if it gets him what he wants he doesn't care what people say about him because he won.

    These are the things they commited to on paper:

    1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new U.S.–DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.
    2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.
    3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.
    4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

    These are all just meaningless words as a commitment to do something without a detailed implementation process, verification process, budget, etc. are all just pie in the sky. No one actually made and CONCESSIONS on paper, they made commitments, which are farts in the wind.

    Trump since then has said that they will stop exercises whilst they negotiate and he said that DPRK has said that it will disassemble a missile engine test site. These are again farts in the wind. The troops remain in place and can resume exercises at the drop of a hat. It doesn't cost Trump anything to make this concession and walking it back will only be a retun to the status quo, as in there won't be any cost to the US for removing that consession. Clearly he hasn't actually given anything away, he's offered something to 'show good faith' in a way that was risk free to him. That's very, very basic stuff when it comes to negotiations. Trump also said that Kim said he'd dismantle the test site. Did Kim actually say that? Who the fuck knows? If it's true, it is also a risk free concession that Kim could make. Firstly, because he doesn't have to verifiy that it's true. Secondly, they likely have more than one test site and thirdly, they can just build another as they did with cooling towers at Yongbyong after they blew up their old ones to 'show good faith'.

    This is all very standard stuff and the US has been down this exdact path before with DPRK under Clinton and under Bush II. don't let all the colour and movement - and most of all his buffoonery - distract you from what is going on.

    For the record - Trump is a dick, I don't support him, I have little faith that he can pull this off and I hope he doesn't get a second term. I also do not support the Communist Party of China and I do not excuse the human rights abuses they commit every day (I've actually lived, worked and travelled there, I've spent many nights around dinner tables with families in tier one cities all the way out into the run down rural areas. I've hung out with people who lived through the revolution and with the younger generation that are well educated and part of the global citizenary. I am aware that many of these people don't actually love and support their government but their lives are improving vastly and they are not willing to jeopardise that progress for the sake of ideals that they feel are lectured to them by the same civilisations that invaded and colonised them up until the 1940s).
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  14. johnny

    johnny I'll tells ya! Staff Member

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  15. pink poodle

    pink poodle Clinically Inane be the übermensch.

    Trump is a narcissist. For most people in Trump's position (wealth beyond measure and approaching the end of life) it is time to leave a legacy...and for the last couple of years he has been repeatedly told by the masses that his legacy is greedy incompetence. As johnny touches on, this is about self inflation, financial gain will play a part but that will come later. He has already pulled off something momentous here just by meeting. If a meaningful, effective, and lasting as well...the kudos will be enormous and somewhat deserved.
  16. moorey

    moorey Peladophobic

    I’ll have a full read soon.
    I don’t think Cohen needs to cooperate any more, given that the Meuller team will be handed more than 98% of the materiel seized from him, in 5 days time.
    I’m more interested in Manafort potentially heading to jail and what that might change.
    That and all the Russians and Ukrainians connected to him being indicted, meaning that Trump really can’t pardon him without pardoning them as also.
    Well played Meuller.

    At least, that’s my understanding on the matter.

    Re the 4 dot points above, thanks for those. Farting in the wind is a good description.
    There is nothing really commited other than vague terms...I particularly like the first one ‘in accordance with the desires of the peoples of the two countries’. Like either giveba thought or fuck about their people other than their vote.

    I don’t consider myself a cynical person...but this brings out the worst in me.
  17. stirk

    stirk Wheel size expert

    Sorry I didn't put a lot of thought into my post and it was an exaggeration as mentioned, if I offended anyone I'm sorry.

    The best and most loved manager I've ever had at work is Chinese and I have Chinese friends so I was not intending to be racist (Pauline) in any way. What was going though my mind when I said that is my disapproval of our government allowing foreign nationals from any country with which we do not share the same ideology and standards to buy our land, particularly agricultural land. I can see that if we locked out our land to our major trading partners they would in turn trade less with us or use tariffs as punishment for such practices and so follow on effects would negatively impact this country more than any apparent future threat from our land being foreign owned.

    My thinking along these lines is not limited to China, it's any country which is under a 'dictatorship' where the people of those countries are not able to elect their officials, are denied basic human rights and are locked up or killed if they don't tow the party line. Many countries fit into this category and their governments can easily manipulate their citizens to their advantage and if that means using our land to their advantage which may put us at a disadvantage then I'm not comfortable with that and this is central to my concern on this matter. Until the whole world is on the same 'page' we have these conflicts of interest which must be managed very carefully, and then we have Trump throwing his trump card into the mix.

    I'd happily see the migration of the people from these oppressed countries into ours. If only our government would reap the mining resources rewards instead of letting filthy rich individuals and international corporations take all the profit. Our government and country would benefit greatly by using that money to build the infrastructure we need to host the population growth. Why let the likes of Clive Palmer be so rich off the natural resources of this country so he can buy lots of small sports cars he can barely get into when we can use that money to build space to host more people more efficiently.

    I wonder when Trump will open a hotel in North Korea.
  18. pink poodle

    pink poodle Clinically Inane

    It will have to be a big hotel, otherwise the Kim family will have bigger hands and a bigger tower...

    I believe this image has been manipulated to exaggerate the giant empty tower.

    Attached Files:

  19. stirk

    stirk Wheel size expert

    Big to host the ego's!

    There is no beach and rockets in that photo.

    Trump will want to compete with Maho Beach with awesome Kim rocket launches every hour. Does Kim have the stamina?
  20. Skydome

    Skydome Likes Bikes and Dirt

    Ryugyong hotel. They started building it in the 80's I believe but stopped in the late or early 90s, however since 2017 from a quick google they've restarted construction on it,, how long the construction will last is an unknown lol.

    But it's an uber expensive hotel, article i read says it's costing 750 million to build.

    But the image you linked almost certainly is an artist rendition of it when completed but the architecture in the image is actually what they are going for.

    As for having big hotels, especially foreign built ones I reckon the North Korean government would impose height restrictions and etc like they've done in Da Nang to stop all future buildings from exceeding the height of the administration building there.

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