You think that South Korea and Japan are just going to forget that North Korea has nuclear weapons?
Also, if other nations don't care about your nukes then they end up serving no purpose, so what would be the point in doing that? who would they be meant to be deterring or coercing?
Our own foreign minister made comments about the benefits of democracy just a week or two ago when discussing China. Political leaders make statements about Tiananmen every June 4th, Australia is pushing back very hard and passing legislation about the way the Communist Party tries to censor Chinese language press, students and social groups in Australia, the Voice of America still broadcasts into China, the Liu Xiaobo issue is still a cause for concern as are Chinese academics that detained when they return to China. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Wages are terrible? Wage inflation has seen a huge amount of manufacturing move to Vietnam, Bangladesh, East Africa, Mexico, etc. Chinese GDP per capita is orders of magnitude away from where it was 15 years ago, the middle class has grown into the hundreds of millions and is the reason why China is now the second largest economy.
Think of it this way, ignoring China is not going to make it go away or loosen the authoritarian hold that it has on its own people. Trading with them allows them to develop. Under Mao there were deaths due to famine in the tens of millions as well as up to 6 million brutalised in the Cultural Revolution. When Deng Xiaoping opened China up citizens were allowed to travel, study overseas and expand their own businesses. Now they have their own stock markets - shitty as they are - massive entrpreneurship, over 50% of the country urbanised, loosening of the one child policy, etc. etc. Of course, they are turning the screws on the legal classes and Xi is not moving in a good direction. But what do you think ignoring them and lecturing them that they should be more like us would achieve?
You think that South Korea and Japan are just going to forget that North Korea has nuclear weapons?
Also, if other nations don't care about your nukes then they end up serving no purpose, so what would be the point in doing that? who would they be meant to be deterring or coercing?
Our own foreign minister made comments about the benefits of democracy just a week or two ago when discussing China. Political leaders make statements about Tiananmen every June 4th, Australia is pushing back very hard and passing legislation about the way the Communist Party tries to censor Chinese language press, students and social groups in Australia, the Voice of America still broadcasts into China, the Liu Xiaobo issue is still a cause for concern as are Chinese academics that detained when they return to China. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Wages are terrible? Wage inflation has seen a huge amount of manufacturing move to Vietnam, Bangladesh, East Africa, Mexico, etc. Chinese GDP per capita is orders of magnitude away from where it was 15 years ago, the middle class has grown into the hundreds of millions and is the reason why China is now the second largest economy.
Think of it this way, ignoring China is not going to make it go away or loosen the authoritarian hold that it has on its own people. Trading with them allows them to develop. Under Mao there were deaths due to famine in the tens of millions as well as up to 6 million brutalised in the Cultural Revolution. When Deng Xiaoping opened China up citizens were allowed to travel, study overseas and expand their own businesses. Now they have their own stock markets - shitty as they are - massive entrpreneurship, over 50% of the country urbanised, loosening of the one child policy, etc. etc. Of course, they are turning the screws on the legal classes and Xi is not moving in a good direction. But what do you think ignoring them and lecturing them that they should be more like us would achieve?
Do you consider yourself a China apologist? (seriously... not a smartass question)
I respect your views... but for me it's a little more black /white.... or good guys vs bad guys. That might seem simplistic, but I can't get past the aforementioned human rights, anti - democracy etc etc simply because it exists at all. Whether Australia is seen to be doing something about the issues you mentioned is secondary to me. A lot of it will be pomp, posturing and hot air anyway. 'Mentioning' Tianemen once a year is sooo big of us. Woop-de-doo daa. Australia is a diplomatic piss-ant. I mean we hosted that Chinese prick recently, yeah? How much of our taxes were spent hosting him? (ask moorey about where funding should go... I don't think he 'd say "improving China /Australia relations"... he'd say disadvantaged kids in our back yard)... tangent.
And we hosted the Cambodian arsehole too. Both regimes are not nice to their people. If we had any nuts we would simply say you're not welcome here until you leave Tibet. Full stop.
As far as I am concerned you either believe in democracy or you can get fucked. You either believe in basic human rights (as the basis for your approach /policy /behaviour etc) or you are fundamentally bad. Sorry, but I'm happy to be very 'grey' and flexible about many things... but not that stuff. Everytime we engage with China or Nth Korea at all, we are legitimising them.
Every time we concede something to China & Nth Korea we are betraying the non - negotiable values we should insist on. They are winning the fight against what I consider good decent human rights /values /principles (like... don't steal other businesses patents and copyrights because that's wrong/amoral)
The not-insignificant benefits to their populace you rightly mentioned are difficult for me to accept when they have come at the cost of more righteous principles and at the cost of our refineries, manufacturing, seafaring, education, sovereignty...
If you work in an industry that has been adversly effected by the rise of China it is difficult to accept. I also understand some industries have benefited greatly. Congrats to them, I suppose.
You explain to me some wholesome Chinese values and I'll stop 'lecturing'. When these 'celebrated' wealthy Chinese business classes buy Australian assets/businesses/infrastructure/ports/farms/properties I get pretty concerned. Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't see a warm intent to integrate & support? (More like manipulate, extract, influence & squeeze).
If the rise of China was achieved with fair wages and conditions and they were democratic, then I would sing their praises. But I feel that their economic advantage was not exactly 'organic'. It was forced by the ruthless party thru zero tolerance of trade unions or bargaining. The Chinese are happy to have foreigners show them how to manufacture things better and gain better efficiencies and 'lend' them a design they can copy.... but we can't advise them how to look after their workers properly? They won't accept our advice when it comes to humanity?
Japan & Sth Korea (both with so much at stake in all this) are already being ignored. Trump made a token effort to hear Japan's concerns last week...but Donald doesn't have the capacity to care about Japan or Sth Korea... or anyone really.
I stand by what I said. KJ is gonna play Trump like a violin. Trump can't think the long game... he only thinks in short busts. KJ is a master of PR/propaganda and his long term goal will be acceptance/tolerance by a wider audience without conceding much.
The nukes will still have the same effect/leverage either way. It's just that it's easier for KJ to get what he wants /needs if he is less isolated and more tolerated.
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