Weights training noob question

[Mywifesirrational]

Worst thing a newbie can do is follow a bodybuilder in a gym.

Amen, I'll add anyone who's not on the gear to that list!

Your understanding on training loads, intensity and adaptation seems pretty solid to me.

Beginners still have to rest, neural adaptations do not occur without rest and you can't put on mass until they occur, soft tissue strains are a risk as they need to adapt just like muscles, DOMS, Z line streaming, Rhabdomyolysis albiet unlikely, then there is the social aspect, burn out...

When I train enthusiastic novice lifters that want to go every day, I alternate days with resistance then aerobic (or swimming if gym has a pool), or get them to do sports specific training. If they just want to lift every day I'll do a split program either x2 or x3 ways - at least then they wont be over training the same muscle groups day in and day out.

 

[blanket_melb]

Worst thing a newbie can do is follow a bodybuilder in a gym.

Why is that?

 

[driftking]

Why is that?

Ill keep it simple

-gym times are too long for most. The guys who spend hours in the gym tend to be on something to keep their levels jacked. (I say tend because many still don't use anything)
-overtraining, newbies don't need that many exercises or volume, too much may actually be bad.
-too much volume or unnecessary volume is a waste if time,energy and nutrients.
-possible under training via longer splits ie, 5day split is 1full body a week.
-most are isolation
-too much rest, these guys are putting much much bigger volumes on the body so they need a 5 day split to get rest. Newbie volume is no where near as high to stimulate growth, you still get hammered but should be able to fit in at least 2x full body a week.
-we move as a compound body not isolation.
-bigger compounds are more effective they train the whole body.
-compounds release more hormones
-Compounds are more natural movements and functional.
-compounds you can fit in 2 full body workouts a week while allowing adequate rest.
-having full rest days allow complete recovery. Splits means lots of break down each workout.

But I think the most simple point is bang for buck.


Mwi if any if that needs correcting please let me know.

 

[blanket_melb]

It is pretty debatable subject and what I find to be an interesting/diverse area. As many bodybuilders/ Power lifters actually concentrate on large muscle group exercises,I don't understand where the focus on isolation comes from? However, even if there is a large focus on isolation, if it is an individual goal to attain better function of a muscle group, a pro-longed or lengthened eccentric contraction of an 'isolated' muscle may be more beneficial and allow growth to take place fairly quickly and well.

Having a full days rest however, does not guarantee complete recovery, so it is up to the individual to be proactive about recovery and follow adequate guidelines. Full body workouts may be too much for a 'newbie' to handle and even pro-long there delayed onset muscle soreness, which could possibly reduce the number of work-outs during the week.

It can only be 'bad' if the person is using bad technique or is not allowing enough recovery time during there work outs which may lead to overcompensation of body parts (Lower back movement for bicep curls). An experienced bodybuilder or lifter would be useful to help assist in mentoring in these areas. So what I think you meant wasn't exactly avoid bodybuilders or even people who spend loads of time in the gym, but perhaps avoid the people who display noticeable body asymmetries (large upper body, poorly developed lower body) and perhaps display too much gym ego (taking selfies in the gym will never be deemed appropriate in my books). You will also find those who are 'jacked', or a competitive body builders don't spend that much time in the gym or do extreme sets, mainly because of the effects of their 'gear' they typically do sets of 3 and reps of 8-12, incorporate compounds movements and complete a sufficient amount of exercises, which I don't think is too taxing or high volume at all. It is the people in the gym environment with high self-esteem issues that will most likely be completing the high-volume/ waste of time exercises.

Compounds are always a good choice, that is something I am not disagreeing with. However, there is an extent to which completing Bench Press, Squats and Pull downs can do to a beginners moral/enthusiasm and contribute to neuromuscular fatigue, which has the potential to turn them off resistance training. Fact's are isolating a muscle group with the right tension stimulates adaption and that is generally enough to keep a person motivated to exercise and stay in the gym.

 

[driftking]

It is pretty debatable subject and what I find to be an interesting/diverse area. As many bodybuilders/ Power lifters actually concentrate on large muscle group exercises,I don't understand where the focus on isolation comes from? However, even if there is a large focus on isolation, if it is an individual goal to attain better function of a muscle group, a pro-longed or lengthened eccentric contraction of an 'isolated' muscle may be more beneficial and allow growth to take place fairly quickly and well.

Having a full days rest however, does not guarantee complete recovery, so it is up to the individual to be proactive about recovery and follow adequate guidelines. Full body workouts may be too much for a 'newbie' to handle and even pro-long there delayed onset muscle soreness, which could possibly reduce the number of work-outs during the week.

It can only be 'bad' if the person is using bad technique or is not allowing enough recovery time during there work outs which may lead to overcompensation of body parts (Lower back movement for bicep curls). An experienced bodybuilder or lifter would be useful to help assist in mentoring in these areas. So what I think you meant wasn't exactly avoid bodybuilders or even people who spend loads of time in the gym, but perhaps avoid the people who display noticeable body asymmetries (large upper body, poorly developed lower body) and perhaps display too much gym ego (taking selfies in the gym will never be deemed appropriate in my books). You will also find those who are 'jacked', or a competitive body builders don't spend that much time in the gym or do extreme sets, mainly because of the effects of their 'gear' they typically do sets of 3 and reps of 8-12, incorporate compounds movements and complete a sufficient amount of exercises, which I don't think is too taxing or high volume at all. It is the people in the gym environment with high self-esteem issues that will most likely be completing the high-volume/ waste of time exercises.

Compounds are always a good choice, that is something I am not disagreeing with. However, there is an extent to which completing Bench Press, Squats and Pull downs can do to a beginners moral/enthusiasm and contribute to neuromuscular fatigue, which has the potential to turn them off resistance training. Fact's are isolating a muscle group with the right tension stimulates adaption and that is generally enough to keep a person motivated to exercise and stay in the gym.

By full day recovery I meant you have a entire day where the body is devoted to recovery without more lifting for over 24hours, not that you will be fully recovered. As opposed to splits where you workout then have say 12hours or max 24hours the. Hit the gym again, yes you are workin a different muscle but its still energy etc.

It's not that a newbie won't get adaptions but most people will get significant size just with the compound movements, the addition if isolation does very little for a new lifter and its nor worth the extra time or energy requirements it takes, no harm in adding some isolation in but a body builders serious split will spend like 45min on just biceps its just not necessary for a new lifter. A new lifter doesn't need to hit the same muscle from 3 directions for 12sets.

Smash your self on compound movements, try get in and out in 45min and then rest try fit in two full workouts a week. Big load so you can 2 day split if it is needed. I previously have worked out using 3-day splits I did hammer curls, curl bar, curls and my biceps literally go no bigger. Iv done workouts where I only did deadlifts for a shot while and I increases my whole body size.

 

[MCHpow_pow]

Read Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe

Essentially 2 week schedule of
Week 1
A
B
A

Week 2
B
A
B

A Session
3x5 Squats
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

B Session
3x5 Squats
3x5 Military Press
5x3 Power Clean

...add weight every session, and repeat the program for as long as you can continue to add more weight (then progress to a more advanced strength routine). Also, eat lots. Sleep lots.

(Plenty of information if you wiki Rippetoe... my spiel is only a brief synopsis)

 

[downhillar]

A Session
3x5 Squats
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

B Session
3x5 Squats
3x5 Military Press
5x3 Power Clean

I'm not being a smart arse just wondering - what about biceps? They don't seem to really be targeted here?

 

[driftking]

I'm not being a smart arse just wondering - what about biceps? They don't seem to really be targeted here?

A newbie will put on weight anyway with this routine starting strength or strong lifts are pretty widely used with good results. These movements are compound and will use biceps as a minor muscle so there should still be stimulation for this. I have out emphasis on biceps in the past and it did almost nothing because I was not doing the big lifts. Compounds will stack on muscle for a newbie like you wouldn't believe. (As long as diet is set)

If you really wanted to add some bicep stuff in you could throw in a few sets of bar curls or whatever but probably not really necessary. If anything I'd be throwing in triceps movements the triceps makes up 2/3 of the upper arm. If I was going down that route I'd do dips, they are another somewhat compound that targets the triceps more. (Bench is pretty good for working triceps though as a secondary.

I'd probably suggest also including rotatory cuff training purely for Injury prevention.

 

[MCHpow_pow]

Yep, what driftking said.

You can move on to isolation exercises once you've got the core foundation of strength.

You can make amendments if you like, but it's really not nescessary until your strength has progressed over a period of at least a few months.

You know you're on the right track once you can (rough guide):

Bench: 1.0x your bodyweight
Squat: 1.5x your bodyweight
Deadlift: 2.0x your bodyeweight

(and you can progress a lot further from here as well)

Also, you won't necessarily get big... Almost all weight gain comes down to diet (i.e. eating a calorie surplus rather than deficit)

Another thing, technique is paramount... make sure you get it dialed before progressing to serious sized weight (especially for the Deadlift and Squat)

 

[trail carver]

Anyone heard of scooby?
When I first started lifting some time ago I found his forum and advice to be useful to me.
He is for the home gym user however, personally I have had much success in working out at home.

Diet is the most important part (or atleast equally important) as I'm sure has been reitterated time and time again.