What do you want from a modern LBS?

[pharmaboy]

The truth is that for people who want enthusiast level components, bike shops in australia mostly cant compete on price - no amount of great service is going to make me want to spend an extra $200 out of $500 to support the nice guys. they may be nice, but my family are nicer and can do better with the money.

For some reason, competing on complete bikes seems easy, and we dont pay through the nose for these, so that what they sell.

Concentrate on the bike and fitting it, sell the accessories that are needed to ride out the door, and leave the upscale gear to online overseas and let the local distros who wont price competitively die

 

[madstace]

I would hope if I owned a LBS that I would have a great working dialogue with customers and do the following
-Someone finds a store in Australia with a lower price that the customer would ask me if i could price match, If so do it
-If I cannot price match Id think ok well look buy it from there and I will install it for you obviously for a fee.
-If however you go overseas than I will not install the part.

I don't really see what this would be achieving for the LBS, apart from perhaps a brief moral/patriotic victory. In my mind, servicing is what shops should be focusing on first and foremost. With lazy ripoff distributors and educated online aware customers, it must be bloody hard for shops to compete on price for parts. Where they can compete though is by charging fair rates for work and let the quality of that work differentiate them from other stores. Where the part comes from, either an on-shore or off-shore competitor, shouldn't matter. If the customer didn't buy it from the LBS, the service charge is an opportunity for them to still make a profit.

 

[driftking]

I don't really see what this would be achieving for the LBS, apart from perhaps a brief moral/patriotic victory. In my mind, servicing is what shops should be focusing on first and foremost. With lazy ripoff distributors and educated online aware customers, it must be bloody hard for shops to compete on price for parts. Where they can compete though is by charging fair rates for work and let the quality of that work differentiate them from other stores. Where the part comes from, either an on-shore or off-shore competitor, shouldn't matter. If the customer didn't buy it from the LBS, the service charge is an opportunity for them to still make a profit.

I agree to a extent but you need to think if ypu were an owner of a store. Someone going overseas is pretty much directly supporting the exact thing tearing down your business. As I said profit is profit and that's ideal for us but any overseas purchase is hurting all aus lbs; there is obvious a big moral factor but also a big argument for practicality.

 

[driftking]

If you owned a store with that attitude you wouldn't own it for very long.

Explain.....
It's based in food customer relation with getting maximum profit. You won't ever force someone to. It your product they will go overseas or elsewhere and then learn to do the work themselves loosing not only that business but any other future repairs.
Forcing people to do there own work isn't really good for lbs.

Most stores do this exact thing minus installing part bought in Australia. They are going to buy the cheaper part anyway and just instal it themselves or find somewhere else, if I can match the price than that's profit for me, if I can't match it well it was never money I had anyway. Plus I get money for installation.

Also given the postage and screwing around ifs expect if my business could get close to the healer item the customer would probably just buy it from me for pure ease.

 

[Pastavore]

I agree to a extent but you need to think if ypu were an owner of a store. Someone going overseas is pretty much directly supporting the exact thing tearing down your business. As I said profit is profit and that's ideal for us but any overseas purchase is hurting all aus lbs; there is obvious a big moral factor but also a big argument for practicality.

i think the "exact thing tearing down" local businesses, is not online sales, it is the high wholesale prices charged by aus distributors. If most local bike shops could get within 10-20% of what is available online, I think most of us would be very happy to use them.

Any 'burners who are distributors who would like to correct me on this, I am genuinely interested in hearing the argument.

 

[pharmaboy]

I agree to a extent but you need to think if ypu were an owner of a store. Someone going overseas is pretty much directly supporting the exact thing tearing down your business. As I said profit is profit and that's ideal for us but any overseas purchase is hurting all aus lbs; there is obvious a big moral factor but also a big argument for practicality.

Why is there an assumption that businesses are being torn down?

My local area has about 20 shops, that number has increased in the last 5 years, not declined. We ride wound on new wheelsets and get new xt brakes, because we can get them for less than 1/2 the price we used to - the losers in that scenario are probably restaurants and pubs - we spend more money on bikes because we see value and cut spending where we dont see value.

 

[rumblefish]

i think the "exact thing tearing down" local businesses, is not online sales, it is the high wholesale prices charged by aus distributors.

I work for a company that distributes non-cycling product. It’s true that distributors set the RRP and wholesale price. They set the RRP based on what they think the consumer will pay and what their completion are charging for similar product. They then look at how much of that RRP that they want the retailer to keep eg 35%, 40%, 50% of the RRP. The remainder is kept as profit by the manufacturer. They don’t use a cost plus model.

Those retailers that are good negotiators or have significant sales volumes can generally demand a lower price which they can keep as profit or pass on to the consumer.

 

[Big JD]

I want to walk in and look around at lots of shinny sh*t and maybe buy stuff and ask questions and walk out.

 

[Hugor]

I wanna be able to take them my unbranded chinese carbon frame with my collection of cheap parts that I purchased online from crc, and have them assemble the bike tomorrow for fuck all.
I expect them to be really happy and appreciative of it too cause I could've taken my business anywhere.
I wanna be able to try on their helmets, shoes and lycra so I can get the correct size for when I purchase them online too.
If they were a really good shop they could have free wifi in the shop so I could make immediate comparisons to online prices, cause I've had so many hits to the head now that my memory isnt so good.

 

[pharmaboy]

I wanna be able to take them my unbranded chinese carbon frame with my collection of cheap parts that I purchased online from crc, and have them assemble the bike tomorrow for fuck all.
I expect them to be really happy and appreciative of it too cause I could've taken my business anywhere.
I wanna be able to try on their helmets, shoes and lycra so I can get the correct size for when I purchase them online too.
If they were a really good shop they could have free wifi in the shop so I could make immediate comparisons to online prices, cause I've had so many hits to the head now that my memory isnt so good.

HAHA - I have a rule for trying on shoes, if I can manage to get in the store, try a shoe on in my size, re pack it and get out of the store without someone saying hello to me - then i buy online. if i get help, I'm caught and will have to pay their outrageous prices! ;D For other readers, if youre interested in shimano shoes - visit anaconda - no chance of being bothered there while trying on. bought shoes from pushy's.

People who use LBS for sizing or advice then buying online really should examine their own integrity, unless asking about a bike they already bought there perhaps.

 

[Big JD]

very funny hugor

 

[DeBloot]

I agree to a extent but you need to think if ypu were an owner of a store. Someone going overseas is pretty much directly supporting the exact thing tearing down your business. As I said profit is profit and that's ideal for us but any overseas purchase is hurting all aus lbs; there is obvious a big moral factor but also a big argument for practicality.

Sorry, DK, But why do I (as a consumer) need to think like a shop owner
A shop owner needs to think like a customer because customers pay the bills
And customers are price driven - yes, it sucks, but so do a lot of the realities of life

If I owned a bike shop (i never will and this is only speculation)
I would be targeting a lot of my marketing towards welcoming all those online shoppers (like myself)
There's money to be made in servicing bikes and it's easier to upsell to someone once their bike is on the stand
And because of all the snooty bike shop owners who feel it is above them to fit online parts, there's a market as well

I would also run workshops to 'fit your online parts and service your bike'
I could be assured that a lot of the people in that workshop would be bringing half finished attempts to me to finish
I would promote it and would welcome them with a smile

Most average hacks like myself can't tune a bike the way they want it
But I'm fucked if I will pay twice the price for parts out of some misplaced loyalty to local bike shops
When i take my bike to the shop with new parts, rarely do i walk out without something else I've needed
And the bill still hurts - but at least the major components are better quality (spec) than what I would have had locally

 

[driftking]

Sorry, DK, But why do I (as a consumer) need to think like a shop owner
A shop owner needs to think like a customer because customers pay the bills
And customers are price driven - yes, it sucks, but so do a lot of the realities of life

If I owned a bike shop (i never will and this is only speculation)
I would be targeting a lot of my marketing towards welcoming all those online shoppers (like myself)
There's money to be made in servicing bikes and it's easier to upsell to someone once their bike is on the stand
And because of all the snooty bike shop owners who feel it is above them to fit online parts, there's a market as well

I would also run workshops to 'fit your online parts and service your bike'
I could be assured that a lot of the people in that workshop would be bringing half finished attempts to me to finish
I would promote it and would welcome them with a smile

Most average hacks like myself can't tune a bike the way they want it
But I'm fucked if I will pay twice the price for parts out of some misplaced loyalty to local bike shops
When i take my bike to the shop with new parts, rarely do i walk out without something else I've needed
And the bill still hurts - but at least the major components are better quality (spec) than what I would have had locally

First up remember by online I am refering to online outside of aus. Just a clear up. Although your point is still the same.
I agree with you but I'm trying to see from the otherwise too. As the consumer we don't have to worry about our business, there is ussually a reason why a store won't offer a specific service.for longevity of our sport and market here is Australia a business needs to consider what is happening. What is hurting Lbs is online overseas purchasing so you can see why they would dislike or refuse to sell that part. For long term survival in years to come its a factor. As someone else noted the issue isn't just the overseas, it's the wholesale pricing in Australia this becomes the issue. The problem is because the lbs pays more those prices will come over to us, Albiet some items are cheaper or pretty well priced but others depending on stores or manufacturer are over priced and from my understanding the lbs can't really do muh about this while still taking a profit. They are somewhat stuck in a pretty shitty position.
Anyway let's get off this and let the thread to where it was intended. There's already plenty of debate on the aus vs OS price wars.

 

[harmonix1234]

Plugs for a LBS that ticks all the boxes? Yup I have to give +1 for TBSM, both online and in store.

Berry Mountain Cycles NSW

BikeRide HOBART

I have been living in Hobart for over a year now and I still get follow up service from berry Mountain Cycles.
They don't have to do it, but they do.
Little things, like custom name stickers for my bike just recently (bit of fun), Keeping me in the loop with what they are doing, and the random Merry Christmas / How's it going emails. And no they are not generic CRC type emails. They ask me how my kids are going, how's Tassie etc.

Bikeride - I purchased a saddle there. Took it home thinking I know my stuff, and that I can fit it myself even though the shop said they would take the time to fit me to it in-store.
A week later I am in the shop talking about how my saddle is 'almost there' and one of the guys grabs my bike and props it up on the stand and got me on it, got my measurements and did a whole bike fit for me.
They didn't ask for money, they didn't even try and sell me anything, they just wanted me to be as well setup as I could and they used all their gauges and protractors and knowledge/service to do so.

So this week I need four bidon screws.
The Boss spends 20 minutes digging around to find four perfectly matched screws says "Two bucks" so I gave the guy a twenty and told him to put the change in the christmas beer fund.
Works both ways.
I'm happy to pay $20 for four screws, because I got the best bike fit I have ever had, for free, and I didn't even ask for it.

That's also why I am happy to pay $1,500 for a set of wheels I cvould have gotten for $1,100 online.
The service is that good.

 

[beardi]

but you must of purchased the bike from the shop he worked at or lets face it "why should i give this customer good service, they did not not let me profit from his bike purchase". why is it ok to bag the overseas purchase but not bag the person who got their stuff elsewhere in the country. why defend someone who obviously wont defend their own words.

Because essentially all he said was that some customers are arseholes and that they charged more for fitting parts not purchased there. What's so hard to understand about this? Service costs are subsidised to some extent by the margin in bike parts. That's a common practice in much of retail....fuel dockets, buy a bike get some cheap accessories etc....

He didn't call anyone here an arsehole yet he's being personally vilified for an opinion. I for one think it's interesting to hear shop owners opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

 

[frensham]

All this bleating about how the LBS is in dire straits and going under is just BS! In my area there has been a increase in bike shops over the last five years NOT a decrease. Most bikeshops don't just sell medium to high end MTB parts and road parts. They sell bikes for the punter, bikes for the commuter, kids bikes, city bikes and 'just riding round the lake' bikes. Most people who buy these bikes do not have a clue about servicing or even 'upgrading' that bottom bracket to a 'Hope with stainless steel bearings'. They simply buy a bike at less than $1000 and ride it. Every now and then they take it back to a bike shop to get something fixed. This is the core business of a bike shop and is totally based around SERVICE.

Now, before we all get high and mighty about protecting the LBS by only buying locally or in Aus, ask yourself where you were when the local fruit and veg shop disappeared because you found it cheaper and more convenient to go to the supermarket. Ask yourself the same question about the local milk bar when next you are in Maccas, ask yourself the same question about the local bottle shop the next time you are in Liqourland or the like...

 

[piggy pie]

Because essentially all he said was that some customers are arseholes and that they charged more for fitting parts not purchased there. What's so hard to understand about this? Service costs are subsidised to some extent by the margin in bike parts. That's a common practice in much of retail....fuel dockets, buy a bike get some cheap accessories etc....

He didn't call anyone here an arsehole yet he's being personally vilified for an opinion. I for one think it's interesting to hear shop owners opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

what is so hard for you to understand "a hole walks in off the street with his internet bought parts" that buddy is you or me, this is a general statement about all net buyers from the way many of us read it. I have been led to understand by a few bikeshops that infact the main income is from service and repair, you dont believe that car dealers make all the cream from car sales do yoou, main profit comes from the after sales of rust proof, tinting and such as well as servicing

 

[charlieking97]

I think my LBS has got it pretty down pat. You would think most shops generally wouldnt like a teenager lingering around, but they are happy for me to come in, borrow tools, ask for advice and get parts ordered asap at competitive prices. I am definitely not the only customer who gets this high level of assistance. They have no obligation to do such a thing, but will still go out of there way to give everyone a hand. I even get out of hours assistance through texting.

Company-costumer relationships are definitely key for me. From the hours I waste there, I see dozens of people walking in, getting immediate assistance even though there might not be anyone at the counter and the front door is out of view from the workshop, they still make sure everyone is assisted in the most polite, useful way. The shop has just 4 staff members, with usually on 2 or 3 on at a time, but they still manage to keep everything under control.

As mentioned before by many people, service and accurate estimation of completion times are critical. Nobody wants to be unsure of when services, orders etc. are going to be ready. Making 3 journeys to the shop just because they the LBS is just too lazy to pick up the phone and let the customer know its sorted shouldnt be a problem, but I know personally, it happens (not at my current LBS).

I have had experiences at a DIFFERENT shop where after waiting 10 minutes, even though there was only one other customer, the 3 staff members were just standing around. Not servicing, not ordering, not busy at all. And to have that sort of terrible service when all i needed was a set of standard tubes, it was just truly dissapointing.

 

[Registered Nutcase]

I think the issues with the LBS and where they fall down can be broken down into 3 areas:

Service

When you employ someone especially someone new to customer service it is hard for them to know what to do, especially if they are younger. I think management and or the owner needs to train up these "green" workers so they know the basic ideals of customer service, with such things as greetings, smiles, looking and acting professional, knowledge base etc. The owners need to look at how to motivate their workers to sell the shop and the products within the shop. Perhaps rather than just an hourly wage, they look at tips or more practically a lower base wage plus commission. It should go without saying but doing what you say you will, phone calls, emails, texts none of it is hard to do, a simple diary would work if it is busy, name blurb and phone number and someone can give them a call later?

As for the mechanics, the fundamental issue is they are not skilled (trade based), there is no minimum standard that they require to work on bikes and I doubt that if you had a trade-qualified mechanics that they would be working for so little money. The rent a tool system would be great and as long as it was cheap (sub $30) I think it would work, especially with things like facing of items and threading tools.

Stock

I always love to walk into a shop and touch, look and drool over all the nice bling, love being tempted to purchase something I shouldn't. I can understand the capital investment required to have that all sitting there and how it ties up the cash. I think the owners need to look at holding things on consignment if possible. Saving cash and shifting the cost onto the distributor rather than yourself. I like my LBS to have good stock of small items such as bolts, pads, tyres, tubes, cables and other bits. Older bike shops used to do this and I am unsure why they don't anymore. So many LBS do not hold good stock levels or are sold out when I turn up, they need a good inventory management system. I am also an impatient person, I want to be able to have the stock ASAP. They need to set up better systems with distributor to ship items there overnight. If I can get an item from UK or USA in 3-5 days, Australia should be 2 days tops.

Local development

I preferred to shop at TBSM because I knew they supported the scene, and actively encouraged ride days, their race day’s support, God knows I used their stuff at race days when I bent a pedal or shattered a rear mech. This investment into the scene is only going to help you, who isn't going to help a company out (by paying extra) when they help fund your local club? I think more LBS need to be looking outwards to see what they can do to promote cycling rather than just focusing on their bottom line.



In regards to the online v's LBS argument. The internet is never going away, if you don't adapt and work out a way to make money on how people operate you are doomed to fail. A LBS should charge a fee for fitting a non-store bought items, but offer free fitting (build the cost into the sale of the part) for store bought items. This needs to be the new business model if you are going to succeed in the internet era.

 

[The Duckmeister]

I'll respond to this bit:

Service
As for the mechanics, the fundamental issue is they are not skilled (trade based), there is no minimum standard that they require to work on bikes and I doubt that if you had a trade-qualified mechanics that they would be working for so little money. The rent a tool system would be great and as long as it was cheap (sub $30) I think it would work, especially with things like facing of items and threading tools.

Part of the problem there is that formal bike mechanics courses are as rare as hens' teeth - the TAFE system doesn't seem to see any value in offering the courses, so they only come up at a handful of places once in a blue moon. This makes it at the bare minimum highly inconvenient but more often downright impossible for anyone to actually get a formal qualification as a mechanic. So the unfortunate offshoot is that there are a lot of people working in shops as mechanics who have been hired because a) they're know at the shop beforehand as being interested in bikes and b) because they can at least hold a spanner.

Virtually all the training is done on the job, but often, because of the lack of formal training, some details get overlooked or lost in translation along the way.

I've been through the chain myself. My skills are virtually all self-taught. I had a decent grasp of the fundamentals when the shop I work at took me on, but a lot of stuff I've picked up on the way just from tinkering, and making the occasional stuff-up. The key is to recognise when you've stuffed something, and learn from it. I'm now in a position where I'm trying to pass on my knowledge to younger colleagues, and let's face it, some people just don't have mechanical aptitude. You can demonstrate until your fingers fall off & tell them until their ears burn, but some just don't get it.

I've been a professional mechanic for nearly 10 years, but don't have the piece of paper that says I know my shit. But I know that I know my shit.