my_bike
Likes Dirt
You can buy HCl (hydrochloric acid) from bunnings.
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Where to buy liquid ammonia in Sydney?
- Thread starter Techno Destructo
- Start date
Ivan
Eats Squid
Putting a strong acid like HCl onto bare steel and aluminium probably isn't the best idea.
my_bike
Likes Dirt
I know as it eats away at most weak metals as Magnesium and probably would eat at Aluminum too. The HCl at Bunnings is not the strong stuff so it's the tiny bit safer.
Just realized I was putting a capital "L" instead of the small "l" in Cl. Silly me.
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
Now you're getting somewhere... probably something like thisI have been looking up the chemistry for the Ammonium-Aluminium reaction and I haven't come across anything conclusive....
Edit: It may just be the Aluminium Oxide or Aluminium Hydroxide is soluble in Ammonia solutions.
Al2O3 + 3 H2O + 2 NH4OH --> 2 NH4Al(OH)4
3viltoast3r
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Sorry if I seem a bit ignorant, but doesnt Sodium hydroxide remove anodizing? or in other words aluminium oxide?
EDIT: The ammonium is used for its basic properties, right? Sodium hydroxide is also pretty basic...... Get some oven cleaner, or something caustic onto it
EDIT: The ammonium is used for its basic properties, right? Sodium hydroxide is also pretty basic...... Get some oven cleaner, or something caustic onto it
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toodles
Wheel size expert
Techno - you can get liquid nitrogen from cryogenic or liquid gas suppliers like Air Liquide, Coregas or Linde.
Aluminium has a roughly 30% higher coefficient of thermal expansion than steel but heating the steel from the outside in short bursts rather than continuous heat will cause seperation of the two metals.
Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda, oven cleaner, draino, etc) aggressively attacks aluminium oxide and then aluminium. If you're interested in going the chemical route I'd try that before trying ammonia. Actually, I'd try a helluva lot of things before trying ammonia.
Failing all that, what is the I.D. of the post? Sounds stupid but I wonder if it would be possible to cut the post flush, slot the aluminium out where the steel frame slot is and then leave it in place like a shim and run a smaller seatpost. Actually that sounds dodgy even to me.
Aluminium has a roughly 30% higher coefficient of thermal expansion than steel but heating the steel from the outside in short bursts rather than continuous heat will cause seperation of the two metals.
Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda, oven cleaner, draino, etc) aggressively attacks aluminium oxide and then aluminium. If you're interested in going the chemical route I'd try that before trying ammonia. Actually, I'd try a helluva lot of things before trying ammonia.
Failing all that, what is the I.D. of the post? Sounds stupid but I wonder if it would be possible to cut the post flush, slot the aluminium out where the steel frame slot is and then leave it in place like a shim and run a smaller seatpost. Actually that sounds dodgy even to me.
kiwiboy80
Squid
Stuck Seatpost
Gday Techno
Dont think you want to go down the liquid ammonia road
Am an Industrial Refrigeration Engineer and work with it daily
Even think you need a ATIK licence or registered Company to purchase it
Its extremely toxic, attacking your eyes throat and cuts in the skin
Think you after Aqueous Ammonia, ie Ammonia in Water
Not Anhydrous Ammonia, in pure NH3 liquid or vapour
Would try Chemical agents to attack the oxide, Caustic Soda??
Keep dosing it and be patient
Then if no luck cut it off an inch from the frame
And try twisting it out with EZIouts??
Or cutting it off, then using a hacksaw blade and file to remove the rest
Or cutting it off and drilling out the rest in a lathe??
If your not worried about the paint too much
Heat is the next best thing, will do wonders for removing oxides and lower temp alloys,
Aliminium has a lower melting temp and is more malleable than steel and should be easier to work out
Sounds like your near Manly, give me a message and may be able to look at it
All the best
Gday Techno
Dont think you want to go down the liquid ammonia road
Am an Industrial Refrigeration Engineer and work with it daily
Even think you need a ATIK licence or registered Company to purchase it
Its extremely toxic, attacking your eyes throat and cuts in the skin
Think you after Aqueous Ammonia, ie Ammonia in Water
Not Anhydrous Ammonia, in pure NH3 liquid or vapour
Would try Chemical agents to attack the oxide, Caustic Soda??
Keep dosing it and be patient
Then if no luck cut it off an inch from the frame
And try twisting it out with EZIouts??
Or cutting it off, then using a hacksaw blade and file to remove the rest
Or cutting it off and drilling out the rest in a lathe??
If your not worried about the paint too much
Heat is the next best thing, will do wonders for removing oxides and lower temp alloys,
Aliminium has a lower melting temp and is more malleable than steel and should be easier to work out
Sounds like your near Manly, give me a message and may be able to look at it
All the best
Right, it's been a while since chem day's but I think I may have an answer for you. Get yourself some NaOH crystals (I've got a tin of Greens 99% flakes).
Mix yourself up a saturated solution (slowely in a glass or ss vessel, not plastic).
Heat this solution up to about 70 degrees (so hot water temp). Be especially careful here, I recommend chemical gloves, a face shield and an acid vapor mask. Hot caustic is nasty stuff. An alternative to manually heating is to mix your solution quickly and the exothermic reaction will heat itself.
Get this solution and pour it into the seat tube from the BB, making sure the seat post doesn't leak out. You can apply a little heat to the outside of the seat tube to hurry things along. Leave it go for a fair while (>1/2 hr) so it has a chance to eat the oxide and maybe a little of the post.
The reaction forms sodium tetrahydroxoaluminate (I think). Either way, it should work. EDIT, I just realized a couple of people on the last page suggested caustic. Oven cleaner won't do the trick, it's just not strong enough. Oh, if you wan't liquid N2, the best place I've found is cattle sperm banks. There's a lot of them around country area's.
Mix yourself up a saturated solution (slowely in a glass or ss vessel, not plastic).
Heat this solution up to about 70 degrees (so hot water temp). Be especially careful here, I recommend chemical gloves, a face shield and an acid vapor mask. Hot caustic is nasty stuff. An alternative to manually heating is to mix your solution quickly and the exothermic reaction will heat itself.
Get this solution and pour it into the seat tube from the BB, making sure the seat post doesn't leak out. You can apply a little heat to the outside of the seat tube to hurry things along. Leave it go for a fair while (>1/2 hr) so it has a chance to eat the oxide and maybe a little of the post.
The reaction forms sodium tetrahydroxoaluminate (I think). Either way, it should work. EDIT, I just realized a couple of people on the last page suggested caustic. Oven cleaner won't do the trick, it's just not strong enough. Oh, if you wan't liquid N2, the best place I've found is cattle sperm banks. There's a lot of them around country area's.
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Ivan
Eats Squid
I'd rather handle concentrated Ammonia solutions than hot concentrated Caustic solutions any day of the week.
toodles
Wheel size expert
I work with both NaOH and KOH caustic solutions as well as liquid ammonia refrigerant.
Kinda hard to compare the two, but I'd prefer the Caustic solutions. At least it only burns the hell out of you if you get it on you - plus it can be neutralised. Liquid NH3 on the other hand evaporates quickly to gaseous ammonia which blinds you, chokes you and makes your groin burn worse than a trip to downtown Bangkok. Between 10 and 30% NH3-air mixture is explosive, and at 5000ppm death is expected in minutes. The liquid gives cryogenic and caustic burns and it eats through rubber and reactive metals.
Personally, I'd rather handle a lot of things before either of them haha
alchemist
Manly Warringah MTB Club
Definitely, but despite what he asked for he doesn't need Liquid Ammonia, he needs an ammonia solution which is the sort of stuff your mum uses to wash the floor.
The suggestion to use hot caustic is a good example of why you shouldn't take any advice you get on the internet.
Fat_Ride
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Maybe also some life/disability insurance.
Ivan
Eats Squid
As alchemist said above, we're talking about solutions of Ammonia, a very different beast to liquid Ammonia. Whenever people discuss chemicals, especially discussions between those that work with chemicals and those that don't, nomenclature is always an issue.
Out of interest Toodles, whats your line of work?
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Geeeezus! It's starting to sound like a competition for what's the most dangerous substance to work with!
I've never heard any recommendations for caustic solutions before this thread, and that's after doing a bit of research on the web. However, the liquid nitrogen and heat combos have been mentioned.
Still, it's sounding like the ammonia solution (even the household product version) is the best route to take to solve this problem...
I've never heard any recommendations for caustic solutions before this thread, and that's after doing a bit of research on the web. However, the liquid nitrogen and heat combos have been mentioned.
Still, it's sounding like the ammonia solution (even the household product version) is the best route to take to solve this problem...
My solution will work. I've worked with hot caustic for plenty of things and you take precautions to mitigate the risk. If your retarded, then sure don't do it, but a bucket of saturated bi-carb solution will pretty well solve all your problems.
Why not just take it to your lbs for the sake of $30 odd bucks and get them to do it. Surely a reputable LBS would have come across this before an know the right fix to get it out.
I'd rather part with the cash than try an use dangerous chemicals or a mix thereof that some have suggested. Even costs a bit more is still going to be a lot cheaper then an ambulance ride and hospital bill and all that pain if you get it wrong.
I'd rather part with the cash than try an use dangerous chemicals or a mix thereof that some have suggested. Even costs a bit more is still going to be a lot cheaper then an ambulance ride and hospital bill and all that pain if you get it wrong.
toodles
Wheel size expert
Yes but considering the concentrations people are banding about, once the reaction is underway the heat will liberate NH3 gas. It's worth keeping byproducts in mind as I've seen more than one evacuation as a result of people forgetting stuff they should have learnt in year 9 chemistry.
I work in the engineering department of frozen meal facility. Caustic is used for the washing areas and for waste stream pH correction. We use NH3 as the primary refrigerant in our fridge plant.
Techno - take any advice you get with a grain of salt. In the instances I've seen of seatposts stuck in frames, one was fixed with a blowtorch and the other with a hacksaw blade and a shitton of patience.
Don't clamp the post and twist the frame - I've heard stories of frames bending before the post frees itself.