Why do cyclist insist on breaking the law?

[jrewing]

In Italy I noticed after a certain time the red lights turn to flashing orange, which means caution, slow down and assess the intersection. Good idea I think beats sitting at an intersection where no ones around Wasting your life waiting for an auto operated machine. Puts the onus on human judgement.

 

[Ridenparadise]

It still amazes me the high proprtion of morning TV helicopter traffic clips that feature car versus bike accidents. Seems like there is one per week on the Brisbane cuts. It is way out of proprtion with the number of bikes on the road and says very little for the way drivers observe and manage the road when bikes are on it.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

When I was a courier I rarely stopped at a red light, so?.

I even used to run reds when the Police trainees were in the intersection directing the traffic, i also did not stop when directed to by police....

I never run red lights now as i am never in a hurry.

Do you remember Crackers, Flash Dan Ash, sneaky pete or any of the other maniacs Stoo, those guys are still alive.

This was bicycle couriering in Melbourne in the lat 90's, we ALL did this sort of thing.

[video=youtube;pQZ6FkzmUqE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZ6FkzmUqE[/video]

 

[Shredden]

Its horse shit, up around Bright and Mt Beauty you see packs of roadies taking up an entire lane, on a two way winding rural highway with a speed limit of 100kmh. They are doing like, 30kmh max.

If you do that, you deserve to get hit by a truck. I honestly don't know how you could expect it not to happen - especially when there is a sealed shoulder ~1m wide.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Its horse shit, up around Bright and Mt Beauty you see packs of roadies taking up an entire lane, on a two way winding rural highway with a speed limit of 100kmh. They are doing like, 30kmh max.

If you do that, you deserve to get hit by a truck. I honestly don't know how you could expect it not to happen - especially when there is a sealed shoulder ~1m wide.

In a way it doesn't matter if they do take up the entire lane, as you are not allowed to overtake unless you are entirely in the other lane.

But yes I have day dreamed about plowing through the entire pack... :tape:

 

[stoo]

Do you remember Crackers, Flash Dan Ash, sneaky pete or any of the other maniacs Stoo, those guys are still alive.

This was bicycle couriering in Melbourne in the lat 90's, we ALL did this sort of thing.

Yeah Sneaky Pete, Ronasaurus, #55 Trev, #74 Mal, Crackers, The Womble, all that lot.
Those were the days.......

 

[frensham]

It's not really ok for any person in control of any vehicle to break the rules - it is human nature to do it, and WE ALL do it - Quote.

NO WE DONT - dont lump me in with your laise fair attitude to the law. I have accidently broken the law as a driver in the past 27 years on two occations. I dont speed, I dont use my mobile, I do indicate when changing lanes and I do make an extra effort to look out for cyclists. I dont subscribe to the expectation that other cyclist or motorists do as I do - common sense should prevail and then there is the law. Cyclists are on the bottom of the food chain on the roads - why would anyone intensionally put themselves in a lower position is beyond me. Once again common sense is key and the OP was talking about major infringements that put people in danger
This topic has been done to death and the last thread ended with so many of you stating your god given right to do what ever the f*ck you want. That you dont care what anyone else does or thinks of you.
You cant debate with people like that - they have the right to think/ behave how ever they like.
I will continue to behave the way I do and everyone else will do the same - nothing will change until you are touch by road toll. Some will make it home at night and some wont, some will be mamed/killed by either their foolishness or someone elses - it is a risk we all take everytime we ride on the roads. How much risk you take on is up to you but if you put me or my family in danger - then I care.
This will go no where as usual

You are certainly holier than thou! You must be the only person in this country who has NEVER done 1 km/h over the speed limit and has come to a complete and utter stop at EVERY single stop sign in 27 years! If you think I believe that.....

The OP WAS talking about major infringements that put people in danger - correct. But many of us have asked why choose to pick on cyclists and not ALL road users? A 2 tonne piece of metal travelling at 70 km/h through a red light is far more dangerous and occurs far more often than cyclists travelling at 8 km/h.
And yes, you are right, I don't care what you think of me - you are nobody to me.

 

[0psi]

The OP WAS talking about major infringements that put people in danger - correct. But many of us have asked why choose to pick on cyclists and not ALL road users?

There's more to it than that. The thing is, which is the point a lot of people fail to see, is that cyclist's actions skew the general public's opinion of all of us. It doesn't matter whether the single act of running a red light is safe or not it still has an impact on what the public thinks of cyclists in general. We are legitimate road users and if we want the general public to take us seriously as legitimate road users then we need to abide by the road laws. How many times have you heard the argument that "the road is for cars", "you don't pay road tax so you don't belong on the road", etc. Our argument isn't helped when a large portion of the cyclists openly flaunt the law.

As someone here already mentioned, if someone in a car does something silly in a car the reaction is "bloody dickhead". It's not a reflection on motorists, it's a reflection on that particular individual. That's not the case with cyclist, if one of us does something silly then the reaction is "bloody cyclists". I'd like to think that one day it will change and if a cyclist does something silly the reaction will just be "bloody idiot" but as long as a large portion of the cycling population continue to adhere to the road laws when it suits them then that day will be a long way away indeed. Once cyclists are viewed as legitimate road users then cycling on the road will be a much safer prospect.

 

[The Duckmeister]

^^ That points out a serious case of double standards. Motorists routinely drive around playing with phones & shit, despite being told almost constantly that it's illegal because it poses a risk to other road users, among other misbehaviours, yet the miscreants are still considered "legitimate road users" for reasons which at times are incomprehensible. Why the fuck are those people still on the roads in control of heavy machinery that they're clearly not responsible enough to operate?

 

[frensham]

There's more to it than that. The thing is, which is the point a lot of people fail to see, is that cyclist's actions skew the general public's opinion of all of us. It doesn't matter whether the single act of running a red light is safe or not it still has an impact on what the public thinks of cyclists in general. We are legitimate road users and if we want the general public to take us seriously as legitimate road users then we need to abide by the road laws. How many times have you heard the argument that "the road is for cars", "you don't pay road tax so you don't belong on the road", etc. Our argument isn't helped when a large portion of the cyclists openly flaunt the law.

As someone here already mentioned, if someone in a car does something silly in a car the reaction is "bloody dickhead". It's not a reflection on motorists, it's a reflection on that particular individual. That's not the case with cyclist, if one of us does something silly then the reaction is "bloody cyclists". I'd like to think that one day it will change and if a cyclist does something silly the reaction will just be "bloody idiot" but as long as a large portion of the cycling population continue to adhere to the road laws when it suits them then that day will be a long way away indeed. Once cyclists are viewed as legitimate road users then cycling on the road will be a much safer prospect.

Can you be more explicit on what you mean by a large proportion of cyclists? 90%? That would be a large proportion. Can you back this up with real research data? I think you will find that the percentage is actually around 7 -12% (it varies across cities). Large proportion? I think not.
The only legitimacy cyclists and any other road user needs is recognition in law. Bicycles have this. They have always been legitimate users by law. If a car driver doesn't think a cyclist is a legitimate user of the road then that is his/her problem.

 

[pharmaboy]

The assumption that cyclists are seen as a group and cars are seen as individuals, is just that.

Pedantic rule followers are a PITA on the road in cars, they will whinge about everyone, while they drive around scared and impotent. As a cyclist I follow the road rules mostly, except where i think its safer for me to ignore them, and become a pedestrian for a moment. I'm not dumb enough however to do it in front of a highway patrolman.

 

[wilddemon]

Can you be more explicit on what you mean by a large proportion of cyclists? 90%? That would be a large proportion. Can you back this up with real research data? I think you will find that the percentage is actually around 7 -12% (it varies across cities). Large proportion? I think not.

Please check the quote you have cited but misread. It said portion, not proportion. I reckon large portion is a lot smaller than a large proportion. Can you back up your 12% with any data? I don't mean to needle you, but if you are quoting something please give ref if available. I cant imagine how accurate data would be acquired for this.

The assumption that cyclists are seen as a group and cars are seen as individuals, is just that.

Pedantic rule followers are a PITA on the road in cars, they will whinge about everyone, while they drive around scared and impotent. As a cyclist I follow the road rules mostly, except where i think its safer for me to ignore them, and become a pedestrian for a moment. I'm not dumb enough however to do it in front of a highway patrolman.

True, it is an assumption based on me reading press. I just hear people say, and read people generalising about cyclists. Those PITA drivers by themselves are impotent, but if there are enough of them they are quite virile and can fnkc us all hard. It only takes one PO'd driver to hurt you and claim SMIDSY (sorry mate I didn't see you). It's not right but the law alone won't protect you.

 

[Big JD]

new radar technology for cars

http://road.cc/content/news/77811-v...n-system-automatic-braking-video?position=CTA

 

[0psi]

Can you be more explicit on what you mean by a large proportion of cyclists? 90%? That would be a large proportion. Can you back this up with real research data? I think you will find that the percentage is actually around 7 -12% (it varies across cities). Large proportion? I think not.

Large enough that it's a common occurrence. In one day I counted no less than 6 cyclists running red lights. It's also the attitude towards cyclist flaunting the law. Ask any motorist if they think it's okay to run a red light and I doubt you'd get anyone agreeing. They may think it's okay in their head but that's an opinion they keep to themselves. Pose the same question to cyclists and you will get a fair number that will publicly say it's okay to run reds. Strangely those same cyclists wouldn't do that in their car :noidea:

The only legitimacy cyclists and any other road user needs is recognition in law. Bicycles have this. They have always been legitimate users by law. If a car driver doesn't think a cyclist is a legitimate user of the road then that is his/her problem.

When you get abused, run off the road and have things thrown at you I think it will become your problem regardless of what the law says. There have already been a few instances of motorists deliberately running down cyclists and in at least one instance it resulted in a death. Doesn't really matter if you are right or wrong, there is no coming back from death.

I know that's an extreme example and there will always be idiots everywhere in life but the general attitude towards cyclists in this country is very poor and it isn't helped by the actions of quite a few that disregard the law. Have a chat to anyone that's spent any time cycling in Europe and they'll tell you what it's supposed to be like.

 

[Big JD]

You are certainly holier than thou! You must be the only person in this country who has NEVER done 1 km/h over the speed limit and has come to a complete and utter stop at EVERY single stop sign in 27 years! If you think I believe that.....

The OP WAS talking about major infringements that put people in danger - correct. But many of us have asked why choose to pick on cyclists and not ALL road users? A 2 tonne piece of metal travelling at 70 km/h through a red light is far more dangerous and occurs far more often than cyclists travelling at 8 km/h.
And yes, you are right, I don't care what you think of me - you are nobody to me.

edit............................ i didnt get what you were saying


the op also is discussing the need for cyclists to show greater respect for the rules of the road - that is not disregarding the need for other road users to do the same. Lets not blame everyone else and fail to shine the light on ourselves .
And yes, you are right, I don't care what you think of me - you are nobody to me. It aint about you or me, it is about peoples attitudes.
Im am ok if we arent interweb besties Frensham

 

[Big JD]

The assumption that cyclists are seen as a group and cars are seen as individuals, is just that.

Pedantic rule followers are a PITA on the road in cars, they will whinge about everyone, while they drive around scared and impotent. As a cyclist I follow the road rules mostly, except where i think its safer for me to ignore them, and become a pedestrian for a moment. I'm not dumb enough however to do it in front of a highway patrolman.

that is a commonsense approach - cyclist need to adapt to situations for avoidance - no one should challenge that in a logical debate. Examples like jumping gutters to get out of the way, taking up more of a lane when there is no bike line or room and turning left when it is clear to do so. Giving drivers a smalll wave/acknowledgement goes a long way to calm those you might have put out for 15 seconds.

 

[pharmaboy]

you stated that you often exceed the speed, have no problems working a mobile phone while driving and often change lanes with indictating. I have stated that I make a conscious effort to follow the letter of the law when dirving a vehicle and riding a bike on the roads and as such have only had two infringements in 27 years.

umm, John, thats not what you said in the earlier post. Frensham is reacting to you saying you've only broken the law on 2 occasions, accidently. I'm sure you can see thats wildly different from receiving 2 infringments. so you might be a little closer in opinion that you think - thats the problem with the type written word

Pretty much, all drivers break the road laws regularly, whether deliberately or not I cant say. When i say "all", i know its sweeping, but i reckon its very close to all. At the very best 1 in 20 cars will stop at a stop sign on my street when nothing is coming and they are turning left. Similarly, in road works on country roads its extraordinarily rare for people to pass the first sign at the limit written, especially when you cant see any work going on.

Now getting caught for it, well thats another question.......

 

[pharmaboy]

that is a commonsense approach - cyclist need to adapt to situations for avoidance - no one should challenge that in a logical debate. Examples like jumping gutters to get out of the way, taking up more of a lane when there is no bike line or room and turning left when it is clear to do so. Giving drivers a smalll wave/acknowledgement goes a long way to calm those you might have put out for 15 seconds.

The only problem is, that non cyclists might not understand or see the safety imperitive. eg small sets of lights with a parked car on the other side - I'll see orange, note the cars approaching stopped, so I go hard and fast 2 seconds before my green comes up - gives me time to get in front, and out to go past the parked car safely.

Some car drivers will see that as not obeying the red light - bastard cyclist!, and others will figure out what I'm trying to do (ie get out of their way, safely and as fast as possible).

The only sure fire cure, is more and more cyclists - the safest palce to ride is where there are lots of other - que, Netherlands

 

[Big JD]

umm, John, thats not what you said in the earlier post. Frensham is reacting to you saying you've only broken the law on 2 occasions, accidently. I'm sure you can see thats wildly different from receiving 2 infringments. so you might be a little closer in opinion that you think - thats the problem with the type written word

.......

yeah fair enough Pharm -
Frensham - perhaps a poor use of the english language - I was trying to say that I am very conscious of the rules of the road and rarely break them. Sorry to give you such a hardtime about following the road rules as drivers.
The OP was in relation to cyclists following the rules - why do we always get to the point of blaming/focussing on other road users. It is always the same RB's that excuse bad behaviour or accept little responsability and take this discussion as an attack on their individual rights.

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?239895-Bike-riders-running-red-lights

20 pages - that missed the big picture

 

[akashra]

My contribution to this thread (for now):