Scott 24hr 2009

[jmcavoy]

two great points there sclyde2. The discussed numberplate idea is a joke.. really. What about riders who refuse to allow passing until firetrail? I came across a few of those.. Just the same mentality

It's just that it is hard to track down these idiots that push women over leaving them in hospital, perhaps we can track these guys down from a description and rolling through the finish line video they have (they had a camera on the finish line for timing check ups)... cheers for making me think of a better idea than rear number plates, which as you say, is a little silly.

Really though we need to fix this problem at the cause which is having a track big enough for the number of entrants, especially the number of solo's, 200 slow solos on that course made for a lot of congestion, let alone all the other slower team entrants. We need more course for that many people, back to figure 8 is the only answer if they want to keep the event this big...

 

[orchie]

Interestingly, the fast guys were still doing very quick times despite the traffic. I could generally tell from the lines people took and how much control they had while passing me exactly what league they were in. Maybe the wannabe racers should realise that the difference between coming 35th and 36th in their category is minimal.

Grant

 

[jmcavoy]

Interestingly, the fast guys were still doing very quick times despite the traffic. I could generally tell from the lines people took and how much control they had while passing me exactly what league they were in. Maybe the wannabe racers should realise that the difference between coming 35th and 36th in their category is minimal.

Grant

You nailed it my friend!

 

[gixer7]

I have been told differently and am not trying to put either rider in a dangerous position. On a largely singletrack course such as Stromlo it is very difficult to overtake without either the lead or overtaking rider going off track.
Not sure whether it is best for the slower, and possibly less skilled rider to have to get off the track though.

Sorry I will explain better - when I say pull over I don't mean get off the track. Simply move to the left or right so there is room to pass. At no time do I expect anybody to ride off the course for me.

If they choose to do so and it is safe then fine but if they cannot then I wait.

I found overtaking with both riders staying on course to be generally fuss free. Couple of times it was a bit tight after they had called me through but as long you are careful is not a problem. Lost count of the number of riders I overtook and only had one issue (my fault) and only one panicky rider I had to calm down and ended up just waiting till firetrail to pass her (had same problem with her on my next lap so I was prepared and coached her through it).

 

[Sumgy]

Sorry I will explain better - when I say pull over I don't mean get off the track. Simply move to the left or right so there is room to pass. At no time do I expect anybody to ride off the course for me.

If they choose to do so and it is safe then fine but if they cannot then I wait.

And sorry from me too.
I did not mean to say that they should get over in the scrub, just that they should ride to one side.

Then again, for a newbie rider, moving to the side of a piece of singletrack is a daunting experience.

 

[*rach*]

My wife was pushed over by some wanna be racer, it's likely she has a broken Scaphoid.

We definitely need a way of dealing with these kinds of people as I have heard of over a dozen cases of women and girls getting knocked down by these guys, they need to identifiable with a rear number plate as you say.

All I can say is Karma...

That sucks balls - get well soon to mrs jason.

I have been to a lot of these events and I have to say the behaviour on the weekend was the worst ever. I am not a superfast rider, but I am not that slow either so the most dudes passing me are our elites i.e. the ones we are meant to look up to.

I had numerous no warning, unsafe passes including having me or my bike contacted with twice. There was one guy who put front wheel to my back (going up hill no less) even though he had heard me call 'track when it is safe' to the rider in front of us. I actually stopped to let him through... and was amazed to then watch him do it AGAIN to the next guy in front. Not a fatigue moment, but an ongoing approach! What a cockhead. I ended up catching him later in the lap and enjoyed riding behind him giving him crap "watch out for the RAMMMMMMER" and "I thought you would be faster given the hurry you were in mate". What a hero.

I think the rear number plates ARE the go. You cannot tell who has put you on the ground when they are riding off if numbers are only on the front. * Edit: I don't think the organisers have time to be rolling through footage, while it is still recording, to find who did it. Not practical.

Props to the Yeti/GU rider who demonstrated how to be fast AND polite. It can be done.

 

[Le Matelot]

The rider being overtaken is obliged to move over, if possible and when safe to do so.

That is almost the rule. Here is the full version - especially see the section in bold:

A rider walking their bike must give way to a rider who is riding. If you are walking your bike, make sure you leave plenty of open track for the other riders

The rider being overtaken has right-of-way (unless they are walking their bike) until the overtaking rider is past and clear by a bike length

If you want to pass the rider in front on single track, call out “TRACK”. Remember, if they have a rear number plate, they are either a Solo Rider or a Schools Rider, so take extra care

When the rider in front feels it is safe to pass, they will pull over to one side and call “PASS”. They may also call out “ON MY LEFT / ON MY RIGHT”

Let the rider in front know what you are doing by calling “ON YOUR LEFT / ON YOUR RIGHT”. If there will be more than one rider passing, let the rider in front know that as you pass them by calling, for example, “TWO MORE COMING THROUGH”

If you do not make this call, the rider in front will assume you have decided not to pass and will return to the centre of the track

The rider in front is under no obligation to let you pass, but slower riders should not delay faster riders unless it is unsafe to let them pass. Remember, if you are the overtaking rider, that conditions you feel are safe may not be considered safe by the rider you want to overtake. They may be less experienced than you, or they may have seen something on the track that you have not.

There are several small sleeper bridges and ramps on the course, some of them over water- overtaking is not allowed on any of these.

The issue always seems to be the "safe to do so" question. The rider coming up to overtake is, by definition, faster and (perhaps) more skilled. So, the overtaking rider may get frustrated because they feel it is safe to overtake, but the less experienced rider in front does not share that opinion.

 

[Blingerific]

Could not agree more. I wanted to track a couple of solo mates, but the web site was sh!te.

At least the weather held out well.

In a quick debrief this morning, the delay in starting to display times was due to ~590 late entries or entries that had to be changed on Saturday morning. That caught them a little off-guard as it would anyone, hence why we say time and again to get there early! It took a while to get the entries into the system, then to get the RFID recording system synchronised with the entry system (hence late entries could start racing as the system was only interested in recording a tag ID).

They also had issues with power failures (when someone decided to just unplug a power cable for their own use, without telling/asking anyone first, several times) and the link from the site to the world wide web...

 

[RichJS]

OK, thanks to all the organisers who put in so much time so I could fang around some of Canberra's finest dirt with 2500 other strangers. I hope everyone had at least as much fun as me, and if it hurt, (sorry to hear about Kylie) that it builds character for you!

As already stated, the traffic at times was horrendous and its a fine balance between keeping your competitive spirit going and being understanding of the huge gaps in riders ability! Nothing worse then hammering yourself up the climb to loose huge amounts of time on a descent. I dont know how the organisers can address this

Le Matelot seems to have suggested that lowering the rider density a little will help with congestion a lot. I'm inclined to agree - though while the 2006 scott24hr was usually pretty packed, I distinctly remember doing a 2AM lap where I didn't see another rider for 30 minutes!

Now, I have called track from the back of a train of riders winding up singletrack. If you're a patient, faster rider at the back of a train then you mightn't be keen to let someone in front of you just to sit on their wheel for hundreds of metres.

.. and in saying that: Rider 6888, you are a knob. Despite your calling of track on me when I was last in a train of at least a dozen riders, I let you through promptly and without drama. I was disappointed to see you shouting at riders in front of you, expressing your annoyance at them having stopped behind a fallen female solo rider instead of riding around her. I wasn't suprised to see a rider further up the train not wanting to give you track, and I must confess that I was amused when he shut you out when you tried to barge past him. Squeezing his front brake lever as you eventually went past him on the firetrail was childish and petulant. I hope you felt pretty stupid when I (average rider that I am) overtook you and your carbon-fibre dually later in the lap.

Having the portable showers close at 10pm was brutal! nuff said.

No-one was guarding the event centre showers at 4AM, they were working, they weren't signed, taped up, or barricaded off and I was desperate, so I had one. It was possibly my Favourite Shower Ever. Sorry, organisers.

Next year, can CORC add a couple of self-contained (IE doesn't use Stromlo's sewerage) shower trucks please?

The track layout was great, great in every way, I preferred it over the fig 8 of last year.

I loved them both, but they both had their downsides. EG, Last year's singletrack climb to Double Dissolution was craptacular. This year's final climb back out of the campsite to add a couple of K's to the end course was just plain mean - though I must award points for use of the flyover bridge. Also, keep more carpet handy for the boggy areas!

One hard-to ignore upside of the figure-8 was the halving of riders queuing for singletrack on the first lap..

Now, timing at the race:

Upside -

• RFID means high accuracy
• RFID still accurate with bunch finishes
• Less labour ..

Downsides -

• Allegedly made it too hard to run the figure-8 course which has proven popular.
• Castech got paid to do it, instead of Le Matelot's (free) software + (free) volunteer labour. Costs CORC = Costs riders.
• Putting a couple of sensors out at far-points on the course as a labour-free anti-cheating method wasn't done, presumably because adding extra sensor locations costs even more $$$.
• Putting in another sensor 500m before transition to show incoming riders to announcers, supporters, waiting riders etc wasn't done, $$$.
• No nifty large-screen displays in transition, all that other stuff dyon said, etc, $$$
• It took as long as it ever does to get results ready for presentation!

People griped about timing errors, but they happened before, and will probably happen with every system. You let the organisers know, they fix them (sooner or later..)

Lastly, I know presentation always goes forever .. and there's now a policy that if there's 2 teams in a category that only 1st place gets a prize, etcetc. However, I was under the impression that 1st, 2nd and 3rd place getters were put up on the podium regardless of how many in the category ..

I was little disappointed to see only 1st place on the podium when there was more than 1 team in the category. It doesn't cost anything to call them up there (hell, you could give them another water bottle and set of grips anyway) and might encourage more people to give that category a go, which is never a bad thing.

 

[Le Matelot]

Interestingly, the fast guys were still doing very quick times despite the traffic.

Of course, but that is a relative measure. The test would be what time they would do on a clear track vs their time on a congested track. The prologue was a different course, so its hard to make comparisons.

Another thing to compare is the time for the second lap of the race for a fast team. The first rider of the fast team would have come in near the lead, so that means the second rider in the fast team has almost a completely empty track to ride. (He would have to be riding at twice the speed of a slow rider to lap them before the end of the second lap.)

So, look at Andy Blair (Australian Team and World Cup XC Rider). He rode the second lap of the race for the Swell team and did 44:45.0 on an unobstructed track, but his subsequent day laps, when he had traffic to contend with, were: 47:46.5 , 49:35.5 , 49:34.3

 

[Le Matelot]

the delay in starting to display times was due to ~590 late entries or entries that had to be changed on Saturday morning.

By way of comparison, with a different rego/timing system in 2008, there were 1046 registration entries that needed to be created and/or changed on Saturday morning. They were all implemented before the race started.

 

[GOD12A]

Heya all

Great event in general, and not a bad effort considering the amount of riders.
Im not going to cut/paste issues that have been brought up many times in the past few pages.

IF next year the Scott24 will be used for the world 24hr as well, would it be wiser to possibly run TWO courses?? One for the solo riders and one for the rest?? Maybe even run 12hrs per course then swap. Sure it will be a logistical nightmare, BUT, compared to having such a mix of skill and competitiveness on one course, it may be part of the solution?? Possibly make the "general course" a little shorter, say 45mins and have another course of similar length for the dedicated solo riders. Im not sure it would compare to current world 24hr event/course standards, but it is just a suggestion.

Thanks again for a great event!!

Mark

 

[jmcavoy]

I was little disappointed to see only 1st place on the podium when there was more than 1 team in the category. It doesn't cost anything to call them up there (hell, you could give them another water bottle and set of grips anyway) and might encourage more people to give that category a go, which is never a bad thing.

I know the Mumnuts (2nd place in Female 6's) were emotionally devastated after they entered a category with 4 teams in it, but because two of those teams changed to other categories at the last minute, they did not get to podium at all. They waited patiently with excitement at pressos to get called up, but then, nothing.

It's a slap in the face to the effort they put into the race, and we need to be more supportive of women in our support, not shutting them out and making them feel second class.

As you say, it would have cost no more to give them some limelight for 5 seconds, but it would have ensured they come back next year despite the violence on course.

 

[Blingerific]

With so many different trails on the mountain i just dont see why they couldnt have done the 2 different laps like last year.

The hour-glass format last year resulted in a lot of complaints. This year we used a single lap and we have, guess what, more complaints!

So what do we do? Pick something and go with it, knowing that you will never please everyone.

The rider density was higher than intended and I pushed for ~2km longer lap but was over-ruled. The number of riders on track was also skewed by a higher than expected number of solos due the Solo Worlds being announced just before the event...

 

[Megs:)]

All in all a great event - I'll definitely be back again and again. Well done to all the winners, especially the solos - you guys are amazing. Jason English did more laps than our whole team and we were going as fast as we could and resting in between. And he still had the extra energy to pull massive wheelies etc!

I have to say its strange to see things down-size from one year to the next, especially the technology. This year we had no big screen, which was a big part of what made hanging out at transition more interesting last year. It also gave the commentators something to mention and you could see your own lap times as soon as you crossed the line which was nice. No GPS transponders or live updates on the prologue. No online list of who would be in the prologue - if everyone had known there were only 4 girls entered a few days earlier more might have entered it and it would have been more interesting. No timing until a quarter of the way through the race. No fastest lap list - last year this list was live and you could look a long way down it and see if your lap was, like 248th best if you wanted to. Still no list has appeared AFAIK? Also less food outlets, less showers available at night, less interesting stuff to read in the handbook (which we didn't get automatically in our kit) and less of a "village" atmosphere compared with 07 and 08. I realise its hard to provide as much when there is less money from less competitors wanting to enter, but none of these changes will help get people back.

The timing issues were probably significant, at least they were to us. We thought we were winning from the moment the timing went live 6 hours in, so it was a little disappointing to be told we were 2nd right as we were about to step onto the top step of the podium. Apparently the poor Onya Bike crew had complained about their times being skipped, to no avail and although it got fixed in the end, I'd say the timing of the fix was pretty poor (in front of the crowd when you've told everybody you know that you won your category) and it made us feel like we'd cheated or something. As it turns out, Onya Bike are way quicker than us and had we known they were ahead of us, we couldn't have kept up with them anyway, but instead of being stoked to be 2nd (a good result given that we were 3rd last year), it was all a bit of a let down and they should have sorted it out earlier (like 6 hours in when Onya Bike noticed the error). I've just been scanning results and Josh Carlson is not even credited with his first lap at all - given that he crossed the line spectacularly in 2nd place having busted out an amazing first lap, I'd say that's fairly disappointing too. It changes his team from 6th (as they are currently listed) to 4th. Given that mistake is an obvious one involving an elite rider doing one of the fastest laps and it is not fixed, I wonder how many errors there must be in teams further down the lists.

The track was good - a good mix of techy stuff, A lines, jumps etc (phew, thank goodness I didn't stack in front of the crowd/cameras). The climb at the end sucked but it was also a good way of making those camped up the back feel part of the action. (Had I realised the track went up there I would have camped up there.) The advantage of one loop was being able to compare lap times with your team and not having to work out who would do which lap etc. But the congestion was crazy and passing was way too frequent, so I'd rather have the red/blue setup any day.

Highlights for me were watching the SCUM Juniors nail their first Scott24 and seeing my 12 year old daughter (who does almost no training) power in with a 65 minute lap. Even her fourth lap was a solid 67. Shameless plug I know, but I am one proud mum!

 

[Blingerific]

Poor form passing

I don't like the sound of the name and shame idea and dishing out lap penalties probably wouldn't do anything to change people's behaviours. Perhaps a motorsport style clerk of the course could be appointed to speak to 'offenders' and take actions accordingly.

My 2c anyway...

That's one of the things the course marshals were for. I was not aware of any of these incidents being reported (then again, I was out on course and away from transition and commentary for most of the race) and that is one of the keys to getting this stuff under control. If we know they're happening, even if we don't have specifics of those causing them, we can try to do something about it.

 

[leftieant]

The hour-glass format last year resulted in a lot of complaints. This year we used a single lap and we have, guess what, more complaints!

So what do we do? Pick something and go with it, knowing that you will never please everyone.

Mate - firstly don't take all of these comments out of context, broadly the event IMO was very well run. There is always feedback after events, and by the nature of the internet (plus the fact that we're all whiney little biatches) generally it's the negative stuff that bubbles to the surface.

Can I suggest the best way to proceed would be to do a post-event survey, either free-form or structured, and get some qualified, independant feedback from the punters.

I think the feedback will be very illuminating - and it will be from a broad section of the MTB community, not just those that read this forum.

 

[Blingerific]

That last climb out of camp

What a great ride. Rather than harp on and on...actually I think I will....

Things I didn't love;

• That last climb out of camp (sorry Mullet).

Well, it <i>is</i> an endurance event

The double loop came about by accident, I was setting the course out to match a map the Race Director had given me. What was marked was apparently not what was intended, though I can say it does match what was on the map!

I quite liked the concept and would have been happy racing on it. Pity Rascals didn't hold up too well but the carpet treatment seemed to help and we let the alternate line stay as it helped also. I had thought of various ways to remove the fireroad descent from Homeview but just plain ran out of time to make it happen, double bunting with the hammer drill required for every pole takes time...

Glad you enjoyed!

 

[Blingerific]

Four Cross drop

We were camped right next to the A/B line jump on the side of the 4 cross track and probably saw about 20 big stacks. One of the best was on a rigid single speed. It looked like most people were able to ride away so hopefully no serious injuries. The majority of people who stacked took it too slowly or tried to roll it.

Yeah um, that was one of the track marshals. Can't take him anywhere...

Cheers!

 

[cgrade]

I'm going to be the one guy who say he liked the last climb - it was a good chance to bust a big effort and (safely) overtake a few people knowing there was no more pain to follow.

My personal highlight was burning off on some uphill fireroad the dick who was overtaking people on the inside one the climb switchbacks on the first lap causing the whole looong line of people behind him to stop when he cut somebody off.