Holden out of Oz in 2017

redbruce

Eats Squid
Yes the astra is a high end car and as an all wheel drive they would be awesome but as front wheel drive no good . I prefer oversteer to understeer rear wheel drive cars are drivers cars.
My niece works in insurance, she said they consider the Ford XR5 the Yamaha R1 of the car world. High proportion of them written of in the first year or two of ownership.

Having said that she is saving up to get one herself!

Anyway, back on topic - The wider issue is the loss of skilled and semi skilled work with the closure/off shoring of manufacturing, aircraft maintenance, etc. A clever country also needs the practical skills to work with the high end ones such as engineering (which also suffers with the loss). I am reminded of this every day at work when one of our techo's comes up with a simple practical solution to a problem or experimental design aspect that we professionals have underestimated, overlooked, or overengineered.
 
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John U

MTB Precision
Agree on all points, except the FWD safety one.

With the exception of high powered ones, that format has been demonstrated to be less likely to get the average punter into trouble.
Given the premium status I would wager that rear drive cars are generally more powerful and front drive cars are generally less powerful. Not sure if this would impact these statistics.

I'm not taking awd into account, and I'm not saying all front drives are gutless. Just that if you have a gutless car chances are it's front drive. I have one gutless front drive and one grunty front drive. For my daily driver I would feel safer in a rear drive or awd.
 

mongoosemichael

Likes Dirt
The Opel astra opc if you could get the power down would destroy a lot of v8 cars they are fast very fast but front wheel drive makes them unstable bumps in the road or camber changes can set of torque steer .
 

Capone

Likes Dirt
While I have had front wheels drives (Euro and Japanese) and consciously chose a Commodoree for its size and RWD layout for driving feel and towing, I reckon I'm in the minority with regard to the latter two reasons. Most large car buyers buy on size, not drive configuration. Having experienced AWD (sons Subaru Liberty) in the house, I would buy AWD in future if it met my other needs.

Mechanic that works on my sons GF's last model Astra reckons that model keep's him in business, along with Volkswagons. Euro isn't necessarily better in all aspects.



Agree on all points, except the FWD safety one.

With the exception of high powered ones, that format has been demonstrated to be less likely to get the average punter into trouble.



VW is a German Holden only stupid Aussies pay a premium for them
 

Ivan

Eats Squid
Successive governments and the RBA have ensured that the high Australian dollar have hollowed out an already weak local manufacturing industry. Export business have also suffered.

RIP affordable RWD v8's
 

floody

Wheel size expert
Because thats what the rumours are that it will the end of the rear wheel drive ! I work on Holden's every day that is what i base it on. We have far more trouble with the Korean built models then we do with the Aussie built ones. I think for most Commadore drivers you will find that the rear wheel drive is an important part to most of them . Not for hoooning purposes but for driving feel . I drive all sorts of Holden's and other models daily but much prefer the feel and handling of rear wheel drive cars any day .

Sorry which ones do you work on every day again? Because the Korean ones far outnumber the commodores in the marketplace. If you're constantly working on the minority type of car, it ain't because its better mate!



What do you base the comment that front wheel drive cars are to some extent safer on?
Because its easier to build active/passive collision safety features into the body, mostly.

As for dynamic safety, a high powered front wheel drive car torque steering when driven over-enthusiastically really is not a serious safety issue. How well do you imagine the 430kw HSV will copy with serious undulation in the road under power? Laughable argument, and a safety non-issue for the mostpart.


I'd prefer a rwd car too, but I'm talking about the market, not me. Holden closing isn't about me, its about the market (I'm not in the new car market in any case.)
If the market preferred large rear wheel drive cars, Holden and Ford would still be in their 1970s position.


As for towing which a few people have mentioned, bring on the death of the locals and free trade, a Ford Superduty is just over $30k in the states....
 

mongoosemichael

Likes Dirt
Yeah the ones coming in for services are commodores the ones coming in for REPAIRS and costly ones at that. I have seen ex police commodores come taxi with 600,000 km on the clock still going strong after a hard life . You will not see a Korean car of any sort do that .
 

floody

Wheel size expert
We haven't had a commodore since the 90s. Last one was a new VS-II S-pack ute which had two transmissions and a diff replaced within the warranty and was replaced at end of warranty period with a far more useful and reliable $400 1981 L200 ute.
 

mongoosemichael

Likes Dirt
You do have a lot of trouble with one tonne ute transmissions because people have a habit of putting 1 tonne in the tray and then towing 1.5 tonne behind it . They never understand why .
 

redbruce

Eats Squid
We haven't had a commodore since the 90s. Last one was a new VS-II S-pack ute which had two transmissions and a diff replaced within the warranty and was replaced at end of warranty period with a far more useful and reliable $400 1981 L200 ute.
My nearly 20 years in the auto repair and modification trade (in an earlier life) showed me there are sad tales (especially if confined to an individual basis) for all makes and models. Some are more prone to certain issues than others, but they all have issues.

My VX has been cheaper and more reliable than any of the Euro's I owned, and the Toyota Cressida which habitually blew head gaskets every 80,000-90,000k (costing upwards of $3000 each time because of the shitty lightweight block with insufficient metal around the bore generally meant a total rebuild) - a well known issue with them (and Skylines of the period) so even Toyota is not immune.
It handles more than acceptably for a barge that can tow my van. My regular ride is a modified Honda VFR 800 (I believe you have a nice moded R30 coupe Floody) so the Holden just has to get me and my family from A to B reliably, affordably and safely (traction control, ABS, front and side airbags in 2001, oh and 1.7Tonne), which it has for over 270,000km. In that time it has had the diff replaced under warranty (@ 35,000km, GM failed to specify synthetic oil for them), steering rack, pump and radiator (all obtained from the local Eastcoast parts store on a sunday morning). I fitted a strut brace, adjustable rear geometry and replaced some bushes and shocks in any case to improve handling and ride.

Basically, I have (now) come to appreciate the merits of simpler engineering. More than enough for the masses actual needs in my opinion, but the market's not convinced.
 
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wombat

Lives in a hole
My niece works in insurance, she said they consider the Ford XR5 the Yamaha R1 of the car world. High proportion of them written of in the first year or two of ownership.
Having recently bought and insured an XR5, mine wasn't that bad. I was looking at a few different cars and comprehensive on the XR5 is about half of what it would cost me to insure a similar priced WRX or Evo, and actually only marginally more expensive than it would be if I'd bought an Accord Euro.

Definately plenty of smashed ones around though, that's how I got a nice fresh leather interior for mine! :)
 

Fruitbat

Likes Dirt
Given that all Australian manufacturing (well, all that I know of....) is under huge pressure cheap imports, what are your thoughts that Australian industry should be aiming for low volume, high quality, high tech production?
Swedish steel industry springs to mind... as far as volume goes they are a drop in the ocean, but if you want quality....
Why can't Holden strive to be a Ferrari or a Lamborghini rather than just a RWD Daiwoo?

Sitting here watching Ultimate Factories and if Bentley can turn a profit in the current climate, why should we be competing in a race to the bottom?
 

wombat

Lives in a hole
Sitting here watching Ultimate Factories and if Bentley can turn a profit in the current climate, why should we be competing in a race to the bottom?
Branding. No one is going to pay premium dollar for a Holden because it doesn't carry the brand cache of Bently or Lamborghini. You could start a new company, but then you have no heritage to trade off.

As for being Ferrari, well hell, even Ferrari don't make their money by selling Ferraris.
 

Fruitbat

Likes Dirt
Branding. No one is going to pay premium dollar for a Holden because it doesn't carry the brand cache of Bently or Lamborghini. You could start a new company, but then you have no heritage to trade off.

As for being Ferrari, well hell, even Ferrari don't make their money by selling Ferraris.
Good point, and I agree its too late for Holden to re-invent itself as a "premium" brand... but if Australian manufacturing in general is going to survive, what strategy should we be going for... how do we build brand cache to charge top dollar for our small volumes?

BMW as a brand wasn't worth a whole lot in 1946, Japanese manufacturing in the 80's was cheap rubbish but now seen as a mark of quality. I know its not an overnight thing... but what should we be aiming for?
 

rone

Eats Squid
but what should we be aiming for?
Divorce GM. They're still practically bankrupt to all intents and purposes. Partner with a manufacturer with worthwhile technology. Focus on what makes Holden different, not become a euro clone.

Could you imagine a Commodore with last-gen Audi technology and build quality?
 
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