Mont 24 advice
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ChopSticks
Banned
ACCC told me to write a letter to SPE, telling me I am entitled to a full refund.
If you read on, you will learn that I have YET TO write this letter.... pending SPE's next course of action.
to all those smart arse who have chimed in regarding a friendly donation... I'd love to see how much is talk and how much is action.
Bank Details:
Account Name: Norman Lee
BSB: 06 22 23
Account no: 1014 8493
Big JD... you started it... how much will you chip in?
Courtenay... $20 still stand?
Mitch, food will be fine
HIfiandmtb, I'd very much like a purple crank arm bolt.... get me that
Moorey...... set of revs will do
Slowmanic...... donate what you will/want/can/said/promised
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
I think that's pretty reasonable middle ground. I suspect that chops feels (like most on Facebook and most on this thread who have actually paid out their money) that the email is somewhat disingenuous - the reasoning just doesn't hold true.
Really the offer is no offer at all to me.
As to the future effect all you have to do as a promoter is make sure you have alternate dates set, choose trails , camping places that aren't so exposed to weather, and be mindful of the laws of this country - I've done other 24hr events that are way cheaper than the mont, so I'm not sure I can swallow the idea that it would be substantially more expensive with appropriate insurance.
If they are forced to return all - will they go under ?- possible/likely, but gee I'm sure they must have had advice somewhere along the track that that was a possibility - there will be hundreds of calls/ emails to the ACCC I reckon . Chops won't be making the difference
I know if I ordered a set of xt brakes off CRC and they didn't arrive, I don't think you guys would say oh well, it's not their fault, I'll cop it on the chin ! Doesn't matter how much money it is, people generally aren't super keen to provide a business with payment without receiving services - I'm pretty amazed this seems such a hard concept to accept for those not involved.
WarbyD
Likes Dirt
No horse in this race, but have been following the thread with interest so feel just as (un)qualified as most of the posters in here to offer my unwanted opinion on the matter!!
I think asking SPE to offer a full refund is definitely not the right approach to this.. That WILL guarantee that there are less events to be run in future, less support for the trails, less people out there wanting to go beyond just riding trails and actively promote and enhance the sport. That being said though, I also don't agree with SPE's offer of a 30% discount on future race entry.
Yes, SPE will have paid out a significant amount to their own suppliers. But if this event was being run for profit, which I gather it was, then those costs would definitely not equal the total sum of race entries and sponsorship, especially given that a number of the supply/service contracts they had would not have required settlement until after the event. SPE definitely should have had insurance against a foreseeable outcome such as the event being rained out and if anyone really thinks that would have pushed the entry fees up significantly then I suggest either the entry fee is well below what it should be or you have no idea what insurance is going to cost. To suggest that insurers are going to charge $150/pp to insure against weather is ridiculous - the insurers want to make money too and know better than to price themselves out of the game.
A few things to keep in mind..
(1) The insurance would have only needed to cover expenses, not revenue. The purpose of the insurance is to protect the promoter from being significantly out of pocket in the event of cancellation and let them live to fight another day, not protect their profit. The cost of this could have been offset and the risk shared (rather than placed entirely on the customers) by indicating in advance that a certain % (say 20-25%) of the entry fee was non-refundable in the event of cancellation. This way the promoter still has that portion of the entry fees to assist with costs regardless (assuming 3,000 entries @ $180ea, that's still $135,000 if 25% is kept) and only needs to insure the gap;
(2) SPE will definitely have had to pay suppliers, many of these items would have been non-refundable because the suppliers DID provide the goods/services they were contracted to provide. The race not going ahead is the promoters problem, not the suppliers;
(3) Inclement weather in the ACT at this time of year is a foreseeable event. To argue otherwise is to argue against common sense. If planning an event for this time of year then you need to consider this and either have a plan B or insurance to protect you;
(4) As I said earlier, I don't think it's reasonable for SPE to be expected to issue a full refund. Apart from helping to mend some of the hole in people's pockets, this is not a win for the sport. Others have suggested sharing of SPE's financials - I don't think this is reasonable, or realistic, either as they are a private company and have no obligation to share their financials with the public BUT I think the rationale behind that in that people want to know that SPE aren't making a profit from this is reasonable. I personally think the most reasonable and "fair" action on SPE's part would be for them to come out and say "Look, our cost to run this event is <X>. 65% of each race entry fee went towards this cost, with the remaining 35% being profit. We would like to offer this 35% back to customers as either a refund or discount on future events." (recognising that not everyone is interested in waiting another 12 months and being out of pocket again to see any return on their loss);
(5) The 30% discount on future events does not necessarily equate to a refund of the profit component of the race entry fee. If SPE's model sees 30% of each entry as profit, then offering that discount on next year's event means they're still taking a profit from this, albeit reduced, in the form of interest accrual etc etc.
(6) It is likely that their business model and plans for the coming year require revenue from each event in order to fund the next - ie, if they issued a refund of the profits from this event it may place the next event in jeopardy. This would explain why there is no refund being offered on this and why their T&Cs are so strictly anti-refund. If this is the case, then that makes it all the more critical that they should have adequate insurance and should be charging appropriately to cover the cost of insurance rather than hoping for the best..
So, there ya go.. That's my uninvited opinion on all of this. Take what you will from it, dispute what you disagree with and generally flame like fuck if that's what takes your fancy.
I think asking SPE to offer a full refund is definitely not the right approach to this.. That WILL guarantee that there are less events to be run in future, less support for the trails, less people out there wanting to go beyond just riding trails and actively promote and enhance the sport. That being said though, I also don't agree with SPE's offer of a 30% discount on future race entry.
Yes, SPE will have paid out a significant amount to their own suppliers. But if this event was being run for profit, which I gather it was, then those costs would definitely not equal the total sum of race entries and sponsorship, especially given that a number of the supply/service contracts they had would not have required settlement until after the event. SPE definitely should have had insurance against a foreseeable outcome such as the event being rained out and if anyone really thinks that would have pushed the entry fees up significantly then I suggest either the entry fee is well below what it should be or you have no idea what insurance is going to cost. To suggest that insurers are going to charge $150/pp to insure against weather is ridiculous - the insurers want to make money too and know better than to price themselves out of the game.
A few things to keep in mind..
(1) The insurance would have only needed to cover expenses, not revenue. The purpose of the insurance is to protect the promoter from being significantly out of pocket in the event of cancellation and let them live to fight another day, not protect their profit. The cost of this could have been offset and the risk shared (rather than placed entirely on the customers) by indicating in advance that a certain % (say 20-25%) of the entry fee was non-refundable in the event of cancellation. This way the promoter still has that portion of the entry fees to assist with costs regardless (assuming 3,000 entries @ $180ea, that's still $135,000 if 25% is kept) and only needs to insure the gap;
(2) SPE will definitely have had to pay suppliers, many of these items would have been non-refundable because the suppliers DID provide the goods/services they were contracted to provide. The race not going ahead is the promoters problem, not the suppliers;
(3) Inclement weather in the ACT at this time of year is a foreseeable event. To argue otherwise is to argue against common sense. If planning an event for this time of year then you need to consider this and either have a plan B or insurance to protect you;
(4) As I said earlier, I don't think it's reasonable for SPE to be expected to issue a full refund. Apart from helping to mend some of the hole in people's pockets, this is not a win for the sport. Others have suggested sharing of SPE's financials - I don't think this is reasonable, or realistic, either as they are a private company and have no obligation to share their financials with the public BUT I think the rationale behind that in that people want to know that SPE aren't making a profit from this is reasonable. I personally think the most reasonable and "fair" action on SPE's part would be for them to come out and say "Look, our cost to run this event is <X>. 65% of each race entry fee went towards this cost, with the remaining 35% being profit. We would like to offer this 35% back to customers as either a refund or discount on future events." (recognising that not everyone is interested in waiting another 12 months and being out of pocket again to see any return on their loss);
(5) The 30% discount on future events does not necessarily equate to a refund of the profit component of the race entry fee. If SPE's model sees 30% of each entry as profit, then offering that discount on next year's event means they're still taking a profit from this, albeit reduced, in the form of interest accrual etc etc.
(6) It is likely that their business model and plans for the coming year require revenue from each event in order to fund the next - ie, if they issued a refund of the profits from this event it may place the next event in jeopardy. This would explain why there is no refund being offered on this and why their T&Cs are so strictly anti-refund. If this is the case, then that makes it all the more critical that they should have adequate insurance and should be charging appropriately to cover the cost of insurance rather than hoping for the best..
So, there ya go.. That's my uninvited opinion on all of this. Take what you will from it, dispute what you disagree with and generally flame like fuck if that's what takes your fancy.
Big JD
Wheel size expert
I will pay whatever is required to end your whining (sorry make you happy)ACCC told me to write a letter to SPE, telling me I am entitled to a full refund.
If you read on, you will learn that I have YET TO write this letter.... pending SPE's next course of action.
to all those smart arse who have chimed in regarding a friendly donation... I'd love to see how much is talk and how much is action.
Bank Details:
Account Name: Norman Lee
BSB: 06 22 23
Account no: 1014 8493
Big JD... you started it... how much will you chip in?
Courtenay... $20 still stand?
Mitch, food will be fine
HIfiandmtb, I'd very much like a purple crank arm bolt.... get me that
Moorey...... set of revs will do
Slowmanic...... donate what you will/want/can/said/promised
Opps just saw Johnny's post
Understandably disappointed people today. Me too, not so much the money (which for most was more than just the entry fee) but the chance to ride that was lost.
We (the punters) ride cause we love it. SPE run events to make money. Regardless of the fact that it is mtb, it is still a business for them. The cut trails so they can hold events. It may have started as an honorable, community spirited way of allowing more people to ride, but now it is a lucrative, money making enterprise and along with that comes a whole lot of new issues and responsibilities that SPE are learning the hard way.
Good will and loyalty from customers is hard won and quickly lost. SPE need to ask themselves do they want to make buckets of money in the long term (decades) or short term (April 2014)? Unfortunately their response to the Mont indicates that they are not looking long term and not respecting the customer base that they have built. Sucking the lemon this year, refunding the full amount or a significant portion so that SPE breaks even on the Mont and continues to operate is a far better long term result than offering insulting discounts on future races.
As many have indicated on FB and forums, they will not, or at least will think twice, about racing SPE events again. Negative sentiments and word of mouth on social media is a killer, I doubt they anticipated the blowback. They could have turned the cancellation into a positive by acting with good will and loyalty to their customers, us, we would have come back next year in our thousands and may have raced another SPE event because of the positive experience. SPE would have recovered lost profits and then some.
But they didn't.
Suck the lemon SPE, your business depends on it.
We (the punters) ride cause we love it. SPE run events to make money. Regardless of the fact that it is mtb, it is still a business for them. The cut trails so they can hold events. It may have started as an honorable, community spirited way of allowing more people to ride, but now it is a lucrative, money making enterprise and along with that comes a whole lot of new issues and responsibilities that SPE are learning the hard way.
Good will and loyalty from customers is hard won and quickly lost. SPE need to ask themselves do they want to make buckets of money in the long term (decades) or short term (April 2014)? Unfortunately their response to the Mont indicates that they are not looking long term and not respecting the customer base that they have built. Sucking the lemon this year, refunding the full amount or a significant portion so that SPE breaks even on the Mont and continues to operate is a far better long term result than offering insulting discounts on future races.
As many have indicated on FB and forums, they will not, or at least will think twice, about racing SPE events again. Negative sentiments and word of mouth on social media is a killer, I doubt they anticipated the blowback. They could have turned the cancellation into a positive by acting with good will and loyalty to their customers, us, we would have come back next year in our thousands and may have raced another SPE event because of the positive experience. SPE would have recovered lost profits and then some.
But they didn't.
Suck the lemon SPE, your business depends on it.
ChopSticks
Banned
BigJD, its a donation... pay what you will
even if I stop whining, there are plenty more who will take my place..... same as SPE, if they do infact crash and burn... theres plenty of other organisers who will take their place and make a killing off the opportunity.
moorey
call me Mia
I, as well, am true to my word. You are lower than a snake, Chops. Fucked if you're getting Revs though, I will not cut off my nose to spite my face, but I shall contribute to the 'shut up you spoiled, whiney little brat fund' and hope it will buy you a purple bolt or 2. Dead to me.
cleeshoy
Eats Squid
After seeing this sort of reaction, it may also discourage people from putting on future events.
Big JD
Wheel size expert
why would you- it is a shambles.
mitchy_
Llama calmer
regardless of whatever is put forward, let it be known that he would still likely still pursue the money from SPE as well... in essence he will essentially be looking to profiteer from it, the very same 'crime' he wants SPE punished for.
ChopSticks
Banned
what fear will they (organisers) have if they have the proper insurance, plan B etc
an event that will protect THEM AND the CONSUMER?
theres plenty of money to be made......
moorey
call me Mia
I'm fully aware of that. Regardless, monies have been transferred, and I honestly hope that it makes him have a good hard look at himself.
pharmaboy
Eats Squid
So, if it is indeed against the law to offer no refunds and not deliver the event, do you support SPE and other promoters in continuing to pretend the law doesn't apply?
ChopSticks
Banned
LOL
at least I know Moorey is a man of his word... :thumb:
what about all the other smart ones? All talk? :argue:
Moorey,
All the self righteous people on here that think an organiser can keep 100% of the $$$ and provide no event are the ones who need a good hard look at themselve... in what sense is that right? thats the bottom line
DeBloot
Feeling old
In a couple of weeks all this will blow over
Chops will grow tired of making phone calls and writing letters
Everyone else who feels aggrieved will have moved on as well
Next year the Mont will be run (weather dependent) and it will be full
And some people will even miss out due to the continued popularity of the event
Some, on principal, won't enter as they are pissed off at the way this has been handled - fair enough
And it's also fair enough that no one will give a flying fuck about that
Chops will grow tired of making phone calls and writing letters
Everyone else who feels aggrieved will have moved on as well
Next year the Mont will be run (weather dependent) and it will be full
And some people will even miss out due to the continued popularity of the event
Some, on principal, won't enter as they are pissed off at the way this has been handled - fair enough
And it's also fair enough that no one will give a flying fuck about that
moorey
call me Mia
Complain about the T&C before the event (or just don't enter), not after your 3rd world problem melt down.
