VIC 2012 Victorian Enduro Series - Website now live!

[akashra]

Go even more brief than that:

- Solo men
- Solo women
- Male teams.
- Female teams.
- Mixed teams.

I don't see the need for separating triples and pairs. A fast mixed pair are going to be just as fast a fast triple. The rest a triple get is offset by actually trying to find three riders all as fast as one another which can more easily be done for a pair. And the number of entries in most events just don't justify the massive variety of teams.
Let the riders entry fee dictate how desperate they are to win the teams category. If they think they need to pay an extra $50 to podium because they'll get tired at hour 5, that's their decision. That's never going to stop a pair of 'pro' riders beating them - how much are they slowing down on their last lap?

Why should there be a SS category?

Unlike age, which you can't choose, you choose to ride a SS. If its not competitive then ride a geared bike. You shouldn't be rewarded for a silly decision. Next you'll want 26" and 29" categories!

This. It's also the same reason I think age categories are a far more sensible idea than grading, in which people constantly sandbag without there being enforcement of what grades a person can compete in.

 

[Stevob]

Why should there be a SS category?

Unlike age, which you can't choose, you choose to ride a SS. If its not competitive then ride a geared bike. You shouldn't be rewarded for a silly decision. Next you'll want 26" and 29" categories!

Tripe. Sounds like you didn't read my post fully. I said I'm happy to ride against the other gearies in my age group, as it makes it more of a challenge. I know it's a choice, but it's the right one for me given my circumstances. Just like you choose to think that a mystical deterioration happens to riders when they go up to the next age group.

For what it's worth, I wasn't suggesting that the SS category be created just so I can win races. I just think it would add a bit more entertainment variety and fun.

Tim, surely something can be done about the sandbagging in grade races. Or is it too much of a logistical nightmare to manage?

 

[serowe]

For what it's worth, I wasn't suggesting that the SS category be created just so I can win races. I just think it would add a bit more entertainment variety and fun.

But where do you then draw the line? Do those riding 29'ers who start yelling for their own category get given one? Do those running 69 gears or those with only 2 gears also get given their own categories? (I think the former would need their own anyway ) It seems that no matter what divisions organisers make (in any sport really) they won't please everyone.

Unless (and here's a radical idea) MTBA do what they should probably have done in the first place and state 'These are our recognised categories - use them. Anything outside these can be run but aren't recognised as an 'official' category'. Maybe it's about time for MTBA to step up and prove their worth in 'managing' MTB'ing in Australia.

Food for thought or argument

 

[vtwiz]

Just like you choose to think that a mystical deterioration happens to riders when they go up to the next age group.

I don't think this. It is an easier way of grading people though. It's the way the school system works and most sports out there. In terms of age group, I think there should be a junior (under 16 or 18 maybe) group and then the seniors (w/teams, solos etc). No need for any more.

Too many categories makes it harder for clubs to come up with prizes. Look, if your doing it on a single speed I'm sure your doing the race mainly for the fun of it anyway so I'm sure you don't really care about a prize.

Perhaps people could register as being in the SS class and have it shown on the results so you can see how you did against other SS'ers but that should be as far as it goes really.

 

[paggnr]

Now I have no firm opinion one way or another about categories however lets remember that the VES was started to increase participation in the sport which was hard to get at State and National XC series.

I started in triples and now race 40+ solo as I improved over time. Most people will follow the same path as they come into the sport.

The VES is a great concept and is under threat from the increase in XCM events (which I enjoy as well) and unless we all support the concept the clubs that make it such a great series will start to think twice and we will lose it.

Flame away as I know some can't help it :ambivalence:

 

[akashra]

Tim, surely something can be done about the sandbagging in grade races. Or is it too much of a logistical nightmare to manage?

Absolutely not, it's easy as hell to manage, just that certain organisers who are hell bent against it like to spread lies like "it's too hard". In the last few years I've heard just about every excuse under the sun to see that any attempt to stop people self-seeding with no management whatsoever is blocked.

Unless (and here's a radical idea) MTBA do what they should probably have done in the first place and state 'These are our recognised categories - use them. Anything outside these can be run but aren't recognised as an 'official' category'. Maybe it's about time for MTBA to step up and prove their worth in 'managing' MTB'ing in Australia.

We already have this, they're in the technical regulations.

I can understand using A/B/C grades at a club level, where the number of entrants doesn't warrant age-based categories, however there are still some that insist on using self-graded and A/B/C style grades state level competition. I do not agree this is the right way to go about state level competition - especially while A/B/C grades at one club competition has absolutely no bearing to the same grades at other venues. There were times when I was racing the pointy end of A in some races, pointy end of B at other places, back end of B in other clubs, and still D grade in road.

 

[Knut]

Double post. Operator error.

 

[Knut]

If I could comment on personal experience please.

I have competed in events with too many cats. The prizes were low level, the presentations went on forever and it felt like everyone had their own cat. It was a little detracting from the competitive nature of the event.

Be careful calling someone a Sandbagger. There will always be that element. I find it insulting that some select few find it self satisfying to gob off into a microphone or on the net about me cheating because I raced triples or entered 40+ instead of open mixed pairs. We paid to be there, we are customers. We race for fun. Admittedly I try to be as competitive as I can but at no cost to the fun I have.

I have had cat prizes sorted out in my lounge room the night before an event and hoped that we get enough entrants for those cats. The club foots the bill for those prizes and giving someone a prize valued at more than their entry fee, without actually competing rides me a little.

There are plenty of events that focus on solos. Teams, participation and the social aspect of racing is the crux of the VES. The competitive comraderie and mateship drastically outweighs the need to win at all costs for many who follow the series.

A decision was made to drop 40+ triples a couple of years ago. I am of that age and Jodie is close. We would still compete in opens. But we aren't everybody else. Remember that these guys started Enduros. There were a very large percentage of 40+ at Forrest. Says to me, there is a market. At that race, there were many new faces. Let's get them involved in our series too. Everyone wins.

As for single speed, it was at the worlds. Let's have it here. It sounds like fun. I would race single speed if there was a cat. Remarks like "let's have a 29 cat" are not in the same context as suggestions for single speed. Triples and pairs are not the same. I have experience drops in numbers from cat reduction at events I have organized. Increase in numbers from freeing up the cats. Someone stupid enough to ride single speed is the same as someone stupid enough to ride solo. We do it for different reasons.

The VES is well supported by some amazing people. In actual fact, some of the nicest people I have met. They are drawn to it for different reasons. If you take those reasons from them, they will walk. If you make it fun, they will race. Competitively or socially.

 

[Stevob]

...As for single speed, it was at the worlds. Let's have it here. It sounds like fun. I would race single speed if there was a cat. Remarks like "let's have a 29 cat" are not in the same context as suggestions for single speed. Triples and pairs are not the same. I have experience drops in numbers from cat reduction at events I have organized. Increase in numbers from freeing up the cats. Someone stupid enough to ride single speed is the same as someone stupid enough to ride solo. We do it for different reasons...

Well said. It's a huge category elsewhere in the world (mainly US) and it would surely generate interest here. Lots of people have geared and ss bikes. In the current situation without a ss cat, very few would make the choice to ride ss in a race, especially for six hours solo. I'm sure that if there was an option, many would give it a try. It ain't as hard as people think.

Just male and female SS, no age groups. Given the track conditions last week at Beaconsfield, how many would have saved their drivetrains and opted to run SS if there was that option?

By the way, even if there is a ss cat at the Forrest 6hr next year, I'll still be riding solo 40+ on my ss at that race. I have issues.

 

[vtwiz]

I wouldn't say the option to ride a SS is the same as choosing to do an event solo. I do think that if you create a SS category you should be just as open to having categories for 26ers (apparently 29ers are faster) and categories for people riding 5"+ travel bikes. I raced a few enduros on a 5"+ bike and saw more than 6 others riding similar Yeti 575's. I didn't think I could really compete with someone on a super lightweight XC bike but i didnt expect my own category. I chose to ride that bike, well it's the only bike I had. Where do you draw the line?

It was previosly mentioned that some racers had multiple bikes (with gears and without) and that by having a SS category you would encourage them to get the SS out. Why is this something that needs to be encouraged? It's a MTB race, mountains have hills and mountains, steep ups and downs, choose the right tool for the job if you want to be competitive. By all means ride your SS for the fun of it or for your own personal challenge.

As I approach 40 I like the idea of a 40+ cat but i like to think that like me, the 40+ers are doing it for fun and don't expect a prize. If you do want to compete for a prize, enter the Open Cat.

There are already enough Cats in enduro's taking into account teams (2, 3, mixed), ages, gender that I think making Cats on types of bike is a bit excessive.

 

[Knut]

I think that we need to look at what will draw competitors to our series.

 

[softek]

+1 for SS category and I dont race for prizes as do most of the people i know race, however having said that, i seen some cool trophies handed out.

 

[Stevob]

I wouldn't say the option to ride a SS is the same as choosing to do an event solo. I do think that if you create a SS category you should be just as open to having categories for 26ers (apparently 29ers are faster) and categories for people riding 5"+ travel bikes. I raced a few enduros on a 5"+ bike and saw more than 6 others riding similar Yeti 575's. I didn't think I could really compete with someone on a super lightweight XC bike but i didnt expect my own category. I chose to ride that bike, well it's the only bike I had. Where do you draw the line?

When you see a 26", 29" or 5"+ world championships, then your point might become valid. SS as a category has plenty of support throughout the world, just not in the VES.

As I approach 40 I like the idea of a 40+ cat but i like to think that like me, the 40+ers are doing it for fun and don't expect a prize. If you do want to compete for a prize, enter the Open Cat.

Believe me, the 40+ cat is plenty competitive at the front.

 

[cleeshoy]

<...some interesting stuff snipped....>

As for single speed, it was at the worlds. Let's have it here. It sounds like fun. I would race single speed if there was a cat. Remarks like "let's have a 29 cat" are not in the same context as suggestions for single speed. Triples and pairs are not the same. I have experience drops in numbers from cat reduction at events I have organized. Increase in numbers from freeing up the cats. Someone stupid enough to ride single speed is the same as someone stupid enough to ride solo. We do it for different reasons.

The VES is well supported by some amazing people. In actual fact, some of the nicest people I have met. They are drawn to it for different reasons. If you take those reasons from them, they will walk. If you make it fun, they will race. Competitively or socially.

All I could interpret was you were definately keen on a SS category, but wasn't sure what other categories you were supporting?

 

[Knut]

I support a place for riders at our events. The age of the average is increasing. We need to be aware of that. The VES is participation based.

I don't support overkill of cats. But I do support cats being introduced that are in the worlds events. If a group can organize a sustainable cat, then let them roll with it.

 

[vtwiz]

"SS is a Worlds Event" and Synchronized swimming is an Olympic sport.....does that make it right? ;-)

 

[Stevob]

"SS is a Worlds Event" and Synchronized swimming is an Olympic sport.....does that make it right? ;-)

For those that might enjoy it, yes.

You should try riding a ss on your local trails. You might actually enjoy it!

 

[vtwiz]

For those that might enjoy it, yes.

You should try riding a ss on your local trails. You might actually enjoy it!

Precisely. You choose to ride a SS because you enjoy it. Race it because you enjoy it too, not to get some token prize.
If you want to be truly competitive and seek prizes then choose the tool/bike that will allow that to happen.

 

[Stevob]

Precisely. You choose to ride a SS because you enjoy it. Race it because you enjoy it too, not to get some token prize.
If you want to be truly competitive and seek prizes then choose the tool/bike that will allow that to happen.

I race because I enjoy the competition. I get podiums regularly enough, probably get more if I trained more often, but don't care much for prizes (cash is always nice though ) but they're not why I race Trophies are nice too, but I do it for me and me alone. Self improvement and all that shit.

The VES is about getting bums on bike seats, and having a single speed cat would benefit that end result more than the introduction of any other category. 50+ might be close behind in popularity though.

At some stage in the future I might borrow a geared bike for a race, just to see what happens. Keep in mind that if you're racing behind me when I'm on a geared bike, be prepared for a laugh when I stuff up the shifting.

 

[slikrims]

Does anyone know if the VES website will be updated at some point? While it was current it was a great 1stopshop for series info/results/reports rather than sniffing around rotorburn.