A science nerd thread.

Pebble

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Women choose mates partially based on pheromones, as you said. When they are ovulating/preparing to ovulate, hormones predispose women to be attracted to the alpha male, warrior type with potentially the strongest genetic stock. After they become pregnant they are predisposed to being attracted to the type who will stick around and provide for their young. The pill mimics pregnancy by the use of hormones so women on the pill are predisposed to being attracted to the nurturing type rather than selecting for the strongest genetic stock.

Of course this is only a predisposition and not a driving force..

And I also heard / saw on TV that Men will go into some sort of protective state when their partner is ovulating, they're not aware of the fact but they might do stuff like ring up and ask if she wants them to pick up milk on the way home etc, basically more attentive or something like that to make sure she doesn't mate with another male.

And I caught something Dr Karl said about women who have armpit hair and live in the same house synchronize their menstrual cycles or something to that effect. Of course these days most women do shave though so not sure what effect that has...well I suppose in a harem the male wouldn't have to go without for a week since they're not all synchronized?
 

Bjorn

Likes Dirt
I caught something Dr Karl said about women who have armpit hair and live in the same house synchronize their menstrual cycles or something to that effect. Of course these days most women do shave though so not sure what effect that has...well I suppose in a harem the male wouldn't have to go without for a week since they're not all synchronized?
I lived in a share house with three women who were in synch and there was one fraught week a month. When a couple of them went on the pill they went out of synch and things were fraught (at 33.333% of the previous level) 3 weeks a month. I never checked if all of them shaved their armpits or not.
 

Mattydv

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As humans though, moreso in the 21st century, are our pheromones really strong enough to trigger ANY sort of reaction? Apart from perhaps causing the opposite sex to gag a bit after we've been exercising/sweating? Teehee.
 

Sean

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Alright science/engineering nerds, here's a simple materials science question for you.

Say that I have a square plate of steel with a hole drilled through the metal. When you heat said plate of steel, it would expand. This means that in theory the external perimeter of the plate would get bigger. Does this then mean that the hole in the centre would then expand (giving it a larger radius) OR go in towards its centre, because the expansion of the metal is forcing it inward?
 

martinpb

Likes Dirt
As humans though, moreso in the 21st century, are our pheromones really strong enough to trigger ANY sort of reaction? Apart from perhaps causing the opposite sex to gag a bit after we've been exercising/sweating? Teehee.
never forget, you're just a monkey with shoes ;-)
 

3viltoast3r

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Alright science/engineering nerds, here's a simple materials science question for you.

Say that I have a square plate of steel with a hole drilled through the metal. When you heat said plate of steel, it would expand. This means that in theory the external perimeter of the plate would get bigger. Does this then mean that the hole in the centre would then expand (giving it a larger radius) OR go in towards its centre, because the expansion of the metal is forcing it inward?
I'll go with outwards, due to the pressure from the material around the hole would propagate through the material and further the expansion of the edges.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Ahh but why then do we seem most genetically similar to a Pig?.
Are we?

from what I'ce been able to find with a 5 second google search (so it must be right)
The Human vs Pig albumen genes are 83% identical (Identities = 1739/2091, Gaps = 80/2091 (3%)).
The Human vs Chimp albumen genes are 99% identical (Identities = 2119/2136, Gaps = 0/2136 (0%)).
The Chimp vs Pig albumen genes are 82% identical (Identities = 1668/2017, Gaps = 84/2017 (4%).

That large mammal have a gene gnome similar in complexity and structure make perfect sence
 

Bjorn

Likes Dirt
Alright science/engineering nerds, here's a simple materials science question for you.

Say that I have a square plate of steel with a hole drilled through the metal. When you heat said plate of steel, it would expand. This means that in theory the external perimeter of the plate would get bigger. Does this then mean that the hole in the centre would then expand (giving it a larger radius) OR go in towards its centre, because the expansion of the metal is forcing it inward?
I'm going along with 3viltoast3r and voting for the hole expanding. My reasoning is far more prosaic; we used to heat engine cases and put bearings in the freezer so they were easy to seat. Hole gets bigger, bearing gets smaller and then they fit together with minimal force.
 

S.

ex offender
Of course my hyper-intelligent children are the exception to this rule...:) By being even brainier than me.:cool:
Well, far be it from me to extrapolate to what that says about your wife... :)

I've only read some of the first page but in answer to the initial question could it be that the lower level humans (pretty crude I know) produce more offspring because of there lower chance of survival. Just look to nature and any number of eco-systems, you will find an organism that will over produce naturally because only a small number of offspring will survive. Just like in rougher areas of communities, having more children may increase the chance of successfully passing on your genes from one generation to the next.

We may see wealth/intelligent/etc. as the highest level humans but when it comes to natural selection survival of the fittest is all that matters. Fitness could just come down to ability to procreate better.
I think what's happened to human society is basically entirely as Arete has said - survival rates (in first world countries) are high enough, with a large enough margin that we are able to pool our resources to help those who would otherwise perish, which in turn gives them the time needed to procreate. Conscious thought and the existence of contraceptives leads many people to NOT want many kids - a trend which seems to, on average, show an inverse correlation between intelligence/education and number of offspring. In this way, traditional genetic indicators of reproductive fitness (body shape, fitness, confidence as well as a host of social traits) are being countered by what some might say is actually a "hive mind" mentality. By this I mean that some people don't want any/many kids because they consider the world overpopulated, or they believe competition for resources is or will become too severe, and as a result, they sacrifice their innate desire to pass their genes on for what they see as the improved survival of the human race.

As you say, "fitness" is not determined prior to procreation, it's only determined as a statistical concept after the sample population has lived and died. What constitutes fitness to survive (and reproduce) changes with the surrounding environment.

Personally I find this whole field incredibly interesting, as I feel that conscious thought and the existence of cooperative societies (ie civilisation in general) is the reason why humans are expected to restrain many instinctive desires. The "hive mind" concept has built up from the very basic idea of cooperation for improved chances of survival, possibly something like this:
1. Cavemen - ok mate how about this, we don't kill each other to get to food, and we hunt together to bring down or trap prey we couldn't catch alone.
2. Primitive nomadic tribes - righto boys, nobody's allowed to kill anyone else in our tribe, or steal stuff from other members of the tribe. We hunt together and the women can do other stuff like prepare food and shelter and look after the toddlers.
3. Early settled societies - as per nomadic tribes, but now we've worked out how to farm. Respect the owners of land, blah blah. Invade other people who aren't part of our society and take their stuff cos that's way easier than finding it or building it ourselves. Integrate them into our social hierarchy so that we all end up working together anyway - even if they're just slaves.
4. Modern society - righto, I don't wanna get up the duff cos I don't want kids, so you better use a condom. If we have kids they'll have to deal with oil/food/water shortage blah blah and I think that's bad for the environment because I own an Apple laptop and vote for the Greens.

As a result of all my ramblings, I think it's interesting that innate emotional reactions such as sexual desire, anger etc are considered bad for society and need to be tightly restrained most of the time, when these instincts are all genetic leftovers from eras where they were necessary simply to survive and reproduce. Various moral codes (religion, laws, etc etc) have been brought in over the past millennia by the various controlling bodies of society in order to try to explain/legitimise the apparent emotional contradiction of feeling angry/horny/whatever and not being able to unleash the physical reaction.

But ultimately I don't believe in evolution, because to quote one member of a clearly well-educated creationist group, "if we evolved from monkeys, howcome we can't speak monkey?". You simply can't argue with that...

edit: I should mention I have little to no formal education on this topic. Pretty well everything I have just said is a wild extrapolation of stuff I've dreamed up when I was drunk.
 

Sean

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yeah that's what I thought. It was just that one of our teachers once asked us that question, simply to make us doubt what we thought was common knowledge, and I'd totally forgotten about it until now.
 

Bjorn

Likes Dirt
By this I mean that some people don't want any/many kids because they consider the world overpopulated, or they believe competition for resources is or will become too severe, and as a result, they sacrifice their innate desire to pass their genes on for what they see as the improved survival of the human race.
Most of the people I've met who justify not having kids for those reasons are revealed in time to not want kids because they don't want to have their orderly little lives messed up and they don't want stop buying shiny new stuff. A good thing from humanities point of view you would think, but they still tend to consume massive amounts of resources due to their higher amounts of disposable income.
 

Mattydv

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S, we didn't evolve from monkey's...we both evolved from a common ancestor. If our need to communicate differently to our ancestor's methods was more effective than it's current, we evolved to communicate in that method and so the original was likely forgotten as it would have been obsolete. Crudely explained, but I hope it makes sense. There are many simply explained aspects of evolution that clearly outline and explain almost any argument that is presented. I'd recommend checking a few out (don't know any titles off the top of my head though), they are often light reading and give a decent base of education if you're unfamiliar.

And Martin, my point was also kind of directed at the number of odours that are around these days. I'm sure that we secrete some sort of chemical signal, but what receptors can pick this up over, say, the overpowering scent of many deodorants and colognes and what effect does this actually have on a practical sense?
 
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Bermshot

Banned
There are many of your equally outlined methods debunked.

Darwinism works for a while but it doesn't explain the line from your dot and up and over through your ball line. That's when I become questionable.
 

Arete

Likes Dirt
There are many of your equally outlined methods debunked.

Darwinism works for a while but it doesn't explain the line from your dot and up and over through your ball line. That's when I become questionable.
It's hard to make any sense of your post, but if you are suggesting that neither stochastic mutation nor diversifying selection adequately explain the process of speciation, I'd be very interested to hear a hypothesis based test that either disproves those processes or provides a viable alternative.

If the alternatives proposed rely on deity based belief in design can we save them for a religion thread?

Mattydv - I think S. was shit stirring.
 

Pebble

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Are we?

from what I'ce been able to find with a 5 second google search (so it must be right)
The Human vs Pig albumen genes are 83% identical (Identities = 1739/2091, Gaps = 80/2091 (3%)).
The Human vs Chimp albumen genes are 99% identical (Identities = 2119/2136, Gaps = 0/2136 (0%)).
The Chimp vs Pig albumen genes are 82% identical (Identities = 1668/2017, Gaps = 84/2017 (4%).

That large mammal have a gene gnome similar in complexity and structure make perfect sence
Well all I can say is I'm happy to be proven wrong, I was thinking along the lines of pigs being used to harvest organs for us I guess so made an assumption that we were more similar to them than monkeys.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Well all I can say is I'm happy to be proven wrong, I was thinking along the lines of pigs being used to harvest organs for us I guess so made an assumption that we were more similar to them than monkeys.
From what I understand that has more to do with organ size and availability. Pointless transplanting a chimps heart if it's only half the size and harvesting organs from rare apes like an orangutan would not have the good news story feel
 
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Bermshot

Banned
It's hard to make any sense of your post, but if you are suggesting that neither stochastic mutation nor diversifying selection adequately explain the process of speciation, I'd be very interested to hear a hypothesis based test that either disproves those processes or provides a viable alternative.

If the alternatives proposed rely on deity based belief in design can we save them for a religion thread?

Mattydv - I think S. was shit stirring.
No, no asumptions, just saying it's there, can one of you guys/girls explain it for me?
 
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