Can America be fixed?

[Squidfayce]

The fear over there is different and you see a bit of it here with the hyperbole about China, African gangs in Melbourne etc. I think a serious issue they have is that fear sells and their media likes to make money (ours is getting there don't you worry). Without strong public safety and honesty regulations for media they will continue to whip up fear in the community for profit. Remember Karl Stephanovic doesn't have to live in the Western suburbs where he is inciting the fear in the community.

I have been lucky (privileged) enough to avoid any kind of actual unprovoked violence from any group that's been demonised in the media.

When my wife worked at vicpol for one of the assistant commissioners, she was privy to summary reports of daily crimes reported from various regions from the previous day. Some areas of Melbourne (west and outer SE) did actually experience a significant amount of crime perpetrated by various ethnic minorities. A lot of it Ultra violent and most of it never reported in the media. While I personally am not worried about that type of crime (not really a target for it and take sensible steps to avoid being a target of it), it has colored my wife's perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if those who have lived through these crimes are vocal and colour their communities perspectives too. Its almost to be expected.

I think there's some data that shows a disproportionate percentage of african youth population is crimey compared to their peers. But it has to be tempered against the fact that in absolute numbers, more crimes are committed by people who are considered white/aussie. Sadly some people have some trouble getting their heads around those two stats and are easily swayed by unconscious bias.

 

[johnny]

Some ethnic groups are represented in crime stats more than others (NSW has a whole Lebanese gang taskforce). But that doesn't imply that some ethnic groups are more prone to a particular behnaviour as there are many other variables at play - the obvious one is that the main ethnic groups over-repped in crime in Australia in recent decades - Lebanese, Vietnamese, Sudanese - were largely refugee communities fleeing war. Most of the educated and well off have the means to relocate before war hits. Those without those attributes often end up as refugees (broad strokes here, but you get the drift).

When they are relocated into new communities they normally band together and stick with what they know, for a while at least. If there is no existing ethnic community to help them integrate (not sure if that's the right word) with their new community, things can head in bad directions. The Greeks, Italians, Chinese and others integrated well because of existing communities. The Australian government thought this would occur with the Lebanese, etc. but over-estimated the size of exiting communities (and I feel they assumed too much about internal social cohesion as well).

None of this is my own thinking on the matter, this comes from the investigations and research carried out internally by govt, with support from the academic/research community.

 

[Litenbror]

Some ethnic groups are represented in crime stats more than others (NSW has a whole Lebanese gang taskforce). But that doesn't imply that some ethnic groups are more prone to a particular behnaviour as there are many other variables at play - the obvious one is that the main ethnic groups over-repped in crime in Australia in recent decades - Lebanese, Vietnamese, Sudanese - were largely refugee communities fleeing war. Most of the educated and well off have the means to relocate before war hits. Those without those attributes often end up as refugees (broad strokes here, but you get the drift).

When they are relocated into new communities they normally band together and stick with what they know, for a while at least. If there is no existing ethnic community to help them integrate (not sure if that's the right word) with their new community, things can head in bad directions. The Greeks, Italians, Chinese and others integrated well because of existing communities. The Australian government thought this would occur with the Lebanese, etc. but over-estimated the size of exiting communities (and I feel they assumed too much about internal social cohesion as well).

None of this is my own thinking on the matter, this comes from the investigations and research carried out internally by govt, with support from the academic/research community.

This ^^

All of the research shows the best outcomes for refugees and immigrants in general happen when there is an established community to help them transition. With this strong community there needs to be good linking with local services and education programs. With these two things you get healthy communities growing with families that integrate well into the broader society. If that link between their community and the greater community isn't there and the opportunities aren't there then it is almost guaranteed to go sideways.

TLDR - if we stop cutting funding for community programs and education we could cut crime and save money on policing (Duh)!

 

[Scotty T]

 

[danncam]

This ^^

All of the research shows the best outcomes for refugees and immigrants in general happen when there is an established community to help them transition. With this strong community there needs to be good linking with local services and education programs. With these two things you get healthy communities growing with families that integrate well into the broader society. If that link between their community and the greater community isn't there and the opportunities aren't there then it is almost guaranteed to go sideways.

TLDR - if we stop cutting funding for community programs and education we could cut crime and save money on policing (Duh)!

Agree with the points about new emerging communities, the nuance is often missed by the media (and politicians for expediency).

Sometimes refugee communities are reasonably well educated, middle class and come with some saved money, often not. (NB my wife did, and my sister does, work in refugee health, in Dandenong)

Many of the Sudanese youth in Dande etc had actually been conscripted into militias and armies (slavery really) and/or spent many years in refugee
camps in Africa. Often they had no parents. I think all things considered the Sudanese community has done an amazing job fitting into Australian life. When i worked in central Dandenong for 4 years the only ones I avoided were white junkie couples arguing and fighting on the pavement.

 

[Stredda]

America........

 

[Oddjob]

Agree with the points about new emerging communities, the nuance is often missed by the media (and politicians for expediency).

Sometimes refugee communities are reasonably well educated, middle class and come with some saved money, often not. (NB my wife did, and my sister does, work in refugee health, in Dandenong)

Many of the Sudanese youth in Dande etc had actually been conscripted into militias and armies (slavery really) and/or spent many years in refugee
camps in Africa. Often they had no parents. I think all things considered the Sudanese community has done an amazing job fitting into Australian life. When i worked in central Dandenong for 4 years the only ones I avoided were white junkie couples arguing and fighting on the pavement.

Before this devolves into some weird anti immigrant screed...

The over-riding factors in crime are poverty, educational attainment, age and being male. This describes most of the perpetrators of all crime and most of the victims of violent crime. The vast majority of crime is non-violent even in the US.

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[DougalStrachan]

The over-riding factors in crime are

Drugs? I always thought they played a big part.

 

[Freediver]

Drugs? I always thought they played a big part.

Before this devolves into some weird anti immigrant screed...

The over-riding factors in drug addiction are poverty, educational attainment, age and being male. This describes most of the perpetrators of all crime and most of the victims of violent crime. The vast majority of crime is non-violent even in the US.

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[mark22]

Bit of misinformation about AR15 style firearms are generally a civilinized semi automatic version of a fully Automatic military firearm.
Even in the USA full auto firearms are not available to the general public.
Not that it really matters with these events.

IMHO the problem lies with Americans themselves they do not like being compelled to do anything be it wearing masks, voting or in this case, responsible firearms laws.

They see it as an affront to their freedom under the Constitution, and some ploy by the government to control them.
The answer is staring them in the face but they won't man up and do it, fear of the unknown maybe?
What the solution is I have no idea.

 

[Haakon]

What the solution is I have no idea.

There isn't one. They're too far gone, this attitude is totally hard wired into their culture.

Its just an empire that needs to fall - it's past its useful life.

 

[The Duckmeister]

Maybe Trump wasn't so far off with his wall idea, except rather than keeping Foreigners out it would keep Americans in where they can destroy themselves away from the rest of the world.

 

[Squidfayce]

There isn't one. They're too far gone, this attitude is totally hard wired into their culture.

Its just an empire that needs to fall - it's past its useful life.

dont think thats a good outcome for anyone. Let them keep their guns, let them keep killing themselves.

 

[danncam]

dont think thats a good outcome for anyone. Let them keep their guns, let them keep killing themselves.

Sadly the number of guns in the US effects Mexico and down.
"Every year, half a million weapons enter Mexico illegally from the U.S...." The mind boggles.

Stopping toxic flow of gun traffic from U.S. to Mexico

Mexican officials, Harvard health policy scholars, and Georgetown law professor discuss a landmark lawsuit targeting U.S. firearm firms.

news.harvard.edu

The solution to gun violence in the US probably sits with fixing their gerrymandered and fucked up voting system. One person one vote would put the current conservative nightmare into the dustbin of history. One really big win by the Dems across both houses of their government could mean ammnedments to their consitution and voting. They need to play a little harder (and "dirtier" perhaps)

 

[Oddjob]

Drugs? I always thought they played a big part.

Drugs are correlated but not necessarily causative. The vast majority of drug use is recreational with no link to crime beyond the drug trade.

Even the Mexican cartels make most of their money from things other than drugs.

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[Squidfayce]

Sadly the number of guns in the US effects Mexico and down.

still not my problem

 

[Asininedrivel]

Its just an empire that needs to fall - it's past its useful life.

I cannot understand why in the current climate with the current aggression being pushed by autocratic regimes anyone would be wishing for the USA to fall over.

The solution to gun violence in the US probably sits with fixing their gerrymandered and fucked up voting system. One person one vote would put the current conservative nightmare into the dustbin of history. One really big win by the Dems across both houses of their government could mean ammnedments to their consitution and voting. They need to play a little harder (and "dirtier" perhaps)

It's a good idea, except that it'd probably swing the axis the other way and put all the power in the hands of the metropolitan (Democrat) areas given their overwhelming population and economic advantage over the rurals. They do need to play harder though, and probably dirtier.

 

[Squidfayce]

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/texas-official-says-police-didnt-go-inside-uvalde-school-because-they-could-have-been-shot/news-story/5bf36999c2c7dab085c85c48d3ccd049

 

[Haakon]

I cannot understand why in the current climate with the current aggression being pushed by autocratic regimes anyone would be wishing for the USA to fall over.

Because half the time its the US being the autocratic regime pushing aggression...

But your point is taken - perhaps better the autocratic aggressive devil you know is better.

 

[danncam]

I cannot understand why in the current climate with the current aggression being pushed by autocratic regimes anyone would be wishing for the USA to fall over.

It's a good idea, except that it'd probably swing the axis the other way and put all the power in the hands of the metropolitan (Democrat) areas given their overwhelming population and economic advantage over the rurals. They do need to play harder though, and probably dirtier.

I'm not convinced that would be terrible. Metro areas have a vested interest in the rural areas supplying them with food and places to spend money when on holidays.